Grizzly vs. Busybee tools

[Chris Fournier]

Wade, That is terrible advice.. Its probably true in NY but not in Canada.. A Canadian Insurance Company will take non-CSA machinery as an opportunity to not pay, every-time ..

Our lawyers are every bit as sh!ty as yours. These are hobbiest machines,none of them will knock your socks off but they may just work - buy local so that you can walk into a store and demand satisfaction. Otherwise be prepared for adversity. Cross border adversity.

[Phil Thien]

Wade, That is terrible advice.. Its probably true in NY but not in Canada.. A Canadian Insurance Company will take non-CSA machinery as an opportunity to not pay, every-time ..

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

[Dave Zellers]

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

To Chris Fournier's point, they can certainly try. And that can scare the bejesus out of a company if that firm carries clout.

This is a fascinating discussion. Is the USA behind the curve (and the times) on these issues or are they holding the line on individual and/or corporate freedom and exercising government restraint?

This is not at all a simple issue of consumer protection. This leads to a much broader issue of the length of the Government leash that a self governing people are willing to allow and whether a leash extended too far can ever be retracted.

[Rick Fisher]

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

The way it works is .. Insurance company says "Oh. Illegal electrical equipment ?.... Your not covered.. Then you get a lawyer, and pay experts to prove it wasn't relevant... and fight .. and eventually you settle for a percentage ..

BUT !! You saved $400 on your saw.. .. So there is that..

[Rick Fisher]

Even in Canada the fire would have to have been started by the machine in question.

That is, if a receptacle in your kitchen causes a fire, they can't point to a non-CSA table saw in the basement and then walk away. Even in Canada.

I would agree 100% ... Odds are if most of us have an electrical fire, it will start in our shops.. However .. it is not the responsibility of the insurance company in the case of a shop fire to prove it was an illegal piece of machinery .. They simply have to cry foul and the onus is on you .. Non approved machinery is legally a big enough deal that an insurance company can use it as a reason to ruin the next year of your life ..

[Phil Thien]

The way it works is .. Insurance company says "Oh. Illegal electrical equipment ?.... Your not covered.. Then you get a lawyer, and pay experts to prove it wasn't relevant... and fight .. and eventually you settle for a percentage ..

BUT !! You saved $400 on your saw.. .. So there is that..

Here in the US, tactics like you describe are going to be frowned upon by the courts, likely labeled as bad faith (with punitive damages) if they form a pattern.

I'm surprised the Canadian insurers can repeatedly get away with that.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rick:

Yes CSA certification is an important issue. The saw is CSA certificated, the jointer/planer "only" UL certified. However, as I understand it:

1 - if a product has significant US made components or was US assembled then UL certification is legally accepted as equivelent to CSA certification;

2 - if a product is first imported into the US, earns a US UL label, and then is re-exported to Canada the law as written requires acceptance of the UL label as CSA equivelent provided that the standards are substantially the same and the uses to which the product is put are substantially the same.

however.. this is Canada and the golden rule in litigation here is that whoever has the most money wins - so if you have a fire, your insurer tries to weasel out of paying on the grounds that you used non CSA certified gear, and there are reasonable grounds for thinking that the gear in question caused the fire, you're probably toast if you don't have enough money, and/or connections, to make your threat to drag them into federal court seem credible.

There is no legal requirement to have a CSA electrical approval on equipment used in Canada.

There is a legal requirement to have a Canadian electrical approval, CSA is one of many who provide this certification.

UL is not a leagl certification for Canada, the Canadian UL approval is.

A quick search will indicate which approval agencies are acceptable in your province................Regards, Rod.

[Wade Lippman]

Here in the US, tactics like you describe are going to be frowned upon by the courts, likely labeled as bad faith (with punitive damages) if they form a pattern.

I'm surprised the Canadian insurers can repeatedly get away with that.

No one has cited an instance in which this has happened; much less when it has been successful.

Certainly they can make claims, and lack of CSA might be one. But they can also claim that you failed to maintain your saw properly, or that you kept gasoline in your garage, or lit a candle, or just about any stupid thing. The CSA thing is just one of many.

You will often read on forums that if you didn't get electrical inspection the insurance company will refuse payment on fires, even if it had nothing to do with the electrical in question. No one has ever cited an example of that happening; and certainly not of it being an effective defense.

[rudy de haas]

Things get worse..

So I get the order paperwork for a G0715P and the G0675P and fill in the customs stuff - and then grizzly says that the G0675 isn't UL listed. That means no legal cover at all for use in Canada and so, no deal. Put everything on hold, back to square 1..

What's particularly surprising is that the G0675 is sold in Grizzly's Bellingham store - and not only does Washington State require electrical certification, but grizzly appears to be authorized to use the UL listings label. So now I'm really confused - and the DMV alumnus I'm dealing with at grizzly isn't all that helpful.

Weird: but it gets weirder.. UL says grizzly power tools are listed products, grizzly says this one is not. Grizzly's amazon ad says it's made in the US, but it's made in China (and it is: DMV lady says so, and it appears to be a jiang machinery contractor or ancilliary product.).

Grizzly suggested that I get it here and have CSA certify it - funny! about $10k I would guess, given it's a one-of in sunny Lethbridge alberta a mere 1,700 miles from the nearest CSA office. (I know, a local engineer could provide some documentation, but the nearest pre-qualified is,. I think, in Calgary - and that doesn't allow selling it off when I'm done with it).

grrr...

[Phil Thien]

Just put everything in the shop on a sub panel and kill it when you leave. Let them claim your unenergized gear was to blame.

[Dave Zellers]

Just put everything in the shop on a sub panel and kill it when you leave. Let them claim your unenergized gear was to blame.

I like that idea. I wonder what that would cost.

[Wade Lippman]

Where is the ad that says the machine in made in the US? That would give you some leverage in dealing with Grizzly.
Where is the machine being shipped? Shipping a machine to Canada that cannot be legally used there is fraudulent. Presumably Grizzly knows the law and would not just be making a mistake.

But the big thing is, can the machine be legally used in Canada? I know code sections have been cited, but it is not clear if they apply to this machine, or to use by individuals. It would be prudent to tie that down; perhaps someone more responsible at Grizzly can help you with that. People here saying what they have heard isn't really definitive.

[Frederick Skelly]

Fascinating discussion. I wonder why Canada seems to have more stringent electrical certs than the US? Might have to go look that up.

Rudy, I suspect that the real point of all the push-back youre getting is that folks just dont want to see you fall for hearsay or legends. Its pretty hard to guess what a big insurance company will do or what a judge will say, unless youre experienced in those areas. Im sure not. Id gather the best facts you can and then decide your risk threshold is vs budget.

Personally, Id ask my insurance agent what certs are acceptable to the company and buy only machinery that complies. I wouldnt work it any harder than that or try to second guess.

Anyway, I hope you sort this out soon, get some good equipment and make barrels of sawdust with it!

Fred

[Rick Fisher]

Rudy, you can have Intertek inspect a machine .. its about $200 .. CSA is only one solution..

Intertek is really big .. they do Maggi feeders and stuff like that ..


I would also simply contact the local electrical inspector and ask him all these questions. Simplify it .. I had it drilled into me by an Electrical inspector .. you may as well too..

[mreza Salav]

all this discussion, and I am willing to bet the machines come from the same factory line. You can buy one locally for about the same price with 3-year warranty.