Time for a new laptop

[Mark Bolton]

Some of you may have read my plight of fighting with my wifi issues. Well, now having solved those (with simply changing the channel on the router!!!! Thanks again everyone) my several year old laptop is suffering a hard drive failure.

The options are overwhelming. I have no intention of over buying as other than running very large files in sketchup and doing image and photo editing in gimp I really don't tax a laptop.

I had hoped for an under 1K budget (was thinking 700-800) as I'll have to buy an office license and a new copy of quick books pro.

My laptop is a first generation convertible/2 in 1. An hp2510 which came with a stylus and the screen rotates and folds back on the keyboard for tablet like use and drawing. I used this ALOT with gimp for digital sketching and drawing and have yet to get any real handhold on levels of sensitivity with a stylus on the touch screens even with a stylus.

I was hoping to hit 8gb of memory and an ssd would be even better where I don't need a massive hd. I had 120 gb and never had problem.

Any input or reviews would be appreciated. I had planned on dell but with all this research I'm beginning to wonder if thats got me hamstrung from a better option. I keep looking at a couple of the acer 14" models that are getting good reviews on amazon.

Thanks

[Howard Garner]

If your happy with you present machine, why not just get a SSD drive before it fails?128 gb for under $100.

Howard Garner

[Dave Richards]

If you are going to buy a new computer and you plan to run SketchUp--especially with larger files--make sure the GPU has an nVidia chipset and there's as much GPU RAM as you can get.

[Mark Bolton]

If your happy with you present machine, why not just get a SSD drive before it fails?128 gb for under $100.

Howard Garner

My currently laptop is pretty old, probably 5-6 years I'm guessing. It struggles with very large sketchup files. The HD is only making it to 11% on a scan then failing. Like a ding a ling I never burned the recovery discs so now I have no OS.

I guess I was mainly thinking it wasn't worth investing a few hundred bucks in that old of a machine.

[Jim Becker]

Mark, it's probably a good idea to invest in a new machine...5-6 years old is "ancient" in "Internet years"!!!! I do agree with opting for better video on whatever you buy. That and lots of RAM are the key to happiness when you are working with images. Don't buy one of the "value priced" laptops. They are fine for general surfing, but not great for doing "real work"...too many corners cut to keep the cost down.

As to Office...get the Office 365 Subscription. $99 per year and you are always current. Good for five computers (Windows AND MacOS) as well as five tablets. (iPad, etc)

[Dave Lehnert]

I have never owned a computer other than Gateway (now Acer owns them) I have had very good luck with them. My laptop is 6 or 7 years old. No issues other than what I consider normal stuff.

[Chuck Wintle]

My currently laptop is pretty old, probably 5-6 years I'm guessing. It struggles with very large sketchup files. The HD is only making it to 11% on a scan then failing. Like a ding a ling I never burned the recovery discs so now I have no OS.

I guess I was mainly thinking it wasn't worth investing a few hundred bucks in that old of a machine.

I have heard that placing the hard drive in a freezer for several hours will "fix" the drive long enough so that that files etc can be recovered. Not sure about the OS restore part though.

[Matt Meiser]

I bought a fairly inexpensive Dell Inspiron 14" last year that met my needs, then swapped out the drive for a 250gb SSD and upgraded the RAM to 8gb myself for far less than buying something with both.

It's well outside your price range but if I was buying today if probably buy the MS Surface Pro 3 with those specs.

[Tim Morton]

i am a mac guy, but needed PC to run the DSP in my car stereo, so i bought a used Asus on amazon and it was under $250 and runs like a champ. I have it running at work do my file ripping to a large format printer with no problems at all.

[Alan Caro]

Mark Bolton,

My concept of organizing computer buying is to derive the hardware from the software and this means having the new system run the most demanding software as well as necessary.

Among your uses, Sketchup would seem to the the most demanding. And, Sketchup is particularly tough- I've never seen a computer that can run large files really well as it is recalculating all those polygons and textures while single-threaded (only using one core), you actually need a high CPU clock speed and good graphics card. I use a system with a 3.8GHz Xeon, 24GB of ECC 1600 RAM, and a 2GB Quadro 4000 and my Sketchup performance is terrible- waiting, waiting, crashing, and waiting. I'm working on a 109MB file at the moment and it's almost unusable. I have to turn off every layer except in the small area I'm working and often that's also in monochrome view. A large screen is essential too as it saves zooming, rotating, and panning the model, which takes all the computer power.

Really, you're much better off with a desktop, but if you need the portability, I'd recommend a Dell Inspiron 17 5000 series. Dell make good laptops and I think there's a great advantage having a 17" screen.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-17...17-5748-laptop

There are touch screen models, getting up near your maximum budget..

There are some good deals on Lenovo (7.7.14), also good work computers >

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops...6&page-index=1

Notice the $599 Z710 which has an i5-4200M @ 2.5 / 3.1 GHz.

All of these will have the Intel HD4600 integrated graphics which is actually very good for 2D, but not really acceptable in 3D when using large files. A system with a dedicated graphics card is almost essential for 3D CAD.

I've never had a laptop, but have been thinking about having it lately and this would be a used Dell Precision M-series, like an M6600 or M6700. These have 17.3" screens and often have fast i7 processors, Dell Ultrasharp panels. and very good Quadro mobile graphics cards. These can have performance as good as a desktop workstation and can run programs such as Revit, Maya, Solidworks, 3Ds, Adobe CS- anything- and made to run long hours at full bore. However, they were also $4-6K new and can still be quite expensive used. It's worth having a look if only to see the kind of laptop intended for solid 3D CAD use. Here's a completed sale on an M6600>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fast-Dell-Pr...p2047675.l2557

If you can use a desktop, that is a much better option for this kind of work and you might consider a used Dell Precision T5500 or T7500 and a 24" monitor. These Precisions are specially designed for this work, with great graphics memory, and disk subsystems and are beautifully made. Sometimes these are very reasonably priced and you then add new components to the performance level you expect. I have a 2008 T5400 that I bought in 2010 for $500, upgraded with a second quad core CPU (that I bought for $125, original cost $1,600), added a used Quadro FX4800 1.5GB (bought for $150, originally, $1,300), increased from 4 to 16GB of RAM- (about $130) and added Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit- (Ebay $70) with an HP 2711x monitor, it's been absolutely reliable, running about 18 hours per day for 4 years. Also, it's worth a far better percentage of what I invested than if I'd paid the $7,000 it would have cost new. Just a thought, but desktops are much more flexible, and will have better performance and the option of any size screen.

Alan Caro


HP z420 (2014) > Xeon E5-1620 quad core @ 3.6 / 3.8GHz > 24GB ECC 1600 RAM > Quadro 4000 (2GB)> Samsung 840 SSD 250GB /Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > AE3000 USB WiFi > HP 2711X, 27" 1920 X 1080 > Windows 7 Ultimate 64 >[Passmark system rating = 3923, 2D= 839 / 3D=2048]

Dell Precision T5400 (2008) > 2X Xeon X5460 quad core @3.16GHz > 16GB ECC 667> Quadro FX 4800 (1.5GB) > WD RE4 500GB / Seagate Barracuda 500GB > M-Audio 2496 Sound Card / Linksys 600N WiFi > Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit >[Passmark system rating = 1859, 2D= 512 / 3D=1097]

2D, 3D CAD, Image Processing, Rendering, Text > Architecture, industrial design, graphic design, written projects

[Mark Bolton]

Mark Bolton,

My concept of organizing computer buying is to derive the hardware from the software and this means having the new system run the most demanding software as well as necessary.

Among your uses, Sketchup would seem to the the most demanding. And, Sketchup is particularly tough- I've never seen a computer that can run large files really well as it is recalculating all those polygons and textures while single-threaded (only using one core), you actually need a high CPU clock speed and good graphics card. I use a system with a 3.8GHz Xeon, 24GB of ECC 1600 RAM, and a 2GB Quadro 4000 and my Sketchup performance is terrible- waiting, waiting, crashing, and waiting. I'm working on a 109MB file at the moment and it's almost unusable. I have to turn off every layer except in the small area I'm working and often that's also in monochrome view. A large screen is essential too as it saves zooming, rotating, and panning the model, which takes all the computer power.

Really, you're much better off with a desktop, but if you need the portability, I'd recommend a Dell Inspiron 17 5000 series. Dell make good laptops and I think there's a great advantage having a 17" screen.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-17...17-5748-laptop

There are touch screen models, getting up near your maximum budget..

There are some good deals on Lenovo (7.7.14), also good work computers >

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops...6&page-index=1

Notice the $599 Z710 which has an i5-4200M @ 2.5 / 3.1 GHz.

All of these will have the Intel HD4600 integrated graphics which is actually very good for 2D, but not really acceptable in 3D when using large files. A system with a dedicated graphics card is almost essential for 3D CAD.

I've never had a laptop, but have been thinking about having it lately and this would be a used Dell Precision M-series, like an M6600 or M6700. These have 17.3" screens and often have fast i7 processors, Dell Ultrasharp panels. and very good Quadro mobile graphics cards. These can have performance as good as a desktop workstation and can run programs such as Revit, Maya, Solidworks, 3Ds, Adobe CS- anything- and made to run long hours at full bore. However, they were also $4-6K new and can still be quite expensive used. It's worth having a look if only to see the kind of laptop intended for solid 3D CAD use. Here's a completed sale on an M6600>

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fast-Dell-Pr...p2047675.l2557

If you can use a desktop, that is a much better option for this kind of work and you might consider a used Dell Precision T5500 or T7500 and a 24" monitor. These Precisions are specially designed for this work, with great graphics memory, and disk subsystems and are beautifully made. Sometimes these are very reasonably priced and you then add new components to the performance level you expect. I have a 2008 T5400 that I bought in 2010 for $500, upgraded with a second quad core CPU (that I bought for $125, original cost $1,600), added a used Quadro FX4800 1.5GB (bought for $150, originally, $1,300), increased from 4 to 16GB of RAM- (about $130) and added Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit- (Ebay $70) with an HP 2711x monitor, it's been absolutely reliable, running about 18 hours per day for 4 years. Also, it's worth a far better percentage of what I invested than if I'd paid the $7,000 it would have cost new. Just a thought, but desktops are much more flexible, and will have better performance and the option of any size screen.

Alan Caro


HP z420 (2014) > Xeon E5-1620 quad core @ 3.6 / 3.8GHz > 24GB ECC 1600 RAM > Quadro 4000 (2GB)> Samsung 840 SSD 250GB /Western Digital Black WD1003FZEX 1TB> M-Audio 192 sound card > AE3000 USB WiFi > HP 2711X, 27" 1920 X 1080 > Windows 7 Ultimate 64 >[Passmark system rating = 3923, 2D= 839 / 3D=2048]

Dell Precision T5400 (2008) > 2X Xeon X5460 quad core @3.16GHz > 16GB ECC 667> Quadro FX 4800 (1.5GB) > WD RE4 500GB / Seagate Barracuda 500GB > M-Audio 2496 Sound Card / Linksys 600N WiFi > Windows 7 Ultimate 64-bit >[Passmark system rating = 1859, 2D= 512 / 3D=1097]

2D, 3D CAD, Image Processing, Rendering, Text > Architecture, industrial design, graphic design, written projects

Thanks Alan,
I run a large external monitor with sketchup. I simply can't draw quickly and efficiently without it.


I do need the portability of the laptop and at this point don't want to invest in, and take the time for, setting up a desktop as well as a laptop.

Also, I can't bear to pack around a massive laptop. To me, when you hit 15", they are pretty much non-portable anymore. My GF has a 15" and while the screen is great it's like having a wide screen TV sitting on your lap and for me is just too cumbersome to pack around to customers as well as working in public locations. I pack my laptop, tablet, accessories, in a small portfolio backpack that goes with me nearly every where and would like to try to maintain very good portability. I think my setup will accommodate a 14" which is 2" bigger than my crashed hp.

I've been doing the same thing you have with regards to hardware and sorting based on a hope for i5, 8gb ram, and now the Nvidia Dave has mentioned. The SSD is a bonus but it and a touch screen for sketching seems like it may be asking too much of my budget..

My main issue with massive files in sketchup with my old laptop was laggy orbiting when texture were displayed and very long auto saves which would just stop every thing in it'd tracks. Rarely ever had crashes or other problems. That said it was an old laptop so performance was impressive I guess.

I simply hate doing all the research and hate spending the money even more ;-)

[Alan Caro]

Mark Bolton,

Your situation is clearer and the laptop medium sized for portability used with an external monitor when in the office makes perfect sense.
You might like to have a look at this in the special deals section of lenovo.com >

http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops.../z-series/z40/

> and the $579 version which is a 14" Lenovo z40 with a 3.0Ghz i5, 8GB RAM, 500GB HD and importantly, a 2GB GeForce graphics card. The Dells in this price range all have a 1.6 or 1.9 CPU and integrated graphics.

I know people using Lenovos and they have good designs, are work oriented, and reliable. Surveys usually put Apples at the top, with Lenovo 2nd or 3rd and ASUS, HP, and Dell on down. The Dells seem really expensive for the specifications- namely 1.6 and 1.9GHz CPU's.

You could of course, switch the HD to an SSD, or there may be room to add a second drive. The SSD prices have dropped recently and a 250GB Samsung 840 Evo is only about $135. I have a 250GB Samsung 840 SSD- my first- in an HP z420 and use it for the OS and applications. The files and a system backup image (made in EaseUs Todo Backup Workstation) are in partitions on a 1TB Western Digital Black mechanical drive. I keep two copies of a system image- made when it's finished but pristine and unused- and it can restore the OS programs , and settings in about an hour.

The odd thing about the SSD is that I added a small partition -10GB to the SSD and load my active, big Sketchup models. These load at almost exactly the same speed as the mech'l drive-forever- the CPU has do a lot a work, but the saves are almost instant and that quick saving made the SSD worthwhile.

I find Sketchup frustrating on several levels, On one hand, even the Pro is inexpensive- there's even still a free version- it's intuitive to use, the 3D warehouse and Google Earth terrain are wonderful, and the results can be quite good. On the other hand, it slows to an impossible crawl without extreme management techniques of layer and monochrome view fussing, and it does very frustrating things- odd behaviors in making planes or features like "Follow Me" that extrudes a section along a path that sometimes takes off on a path of it's own. When there are problems, they can be disguised- very difficult to solve. If I extrude something and then erase the plane rather than reverse the process all the way back, it leaves little line sections that new lines snap to. I found a new problem just a moment ago as I was going to send a test image from my current large (109MB) Sketchup model, but it wouldn't make it with shadows, saying "Out of Memory". It has to be an allocation setting as the system has 24GB and Task Manager shows only 5.5GB used. Every day it seems there's some new Sketchup problem that presents a limitation.

I recently downloaded a trial version of Rhinoceros 5 which works in viewports and seems to have a better performance and a kind of focus towards greater accuracy overall than Sketchup, just based on playing with large sample models, and the integrated rendering appears to be pretty good. There are a lot more controls of course, but seems relatively intuitive. I'm considering whether to learn Inventor or Solidworks as well, which are more industrial design oriented but Rhino seems to works for about everything.

Yes, computer shopping is a real chore. The hardware combinations are infinite and changing all the time as is the software. In terms of research, the only comments are usually complaints, so it seems as though they're all disastrous. At least the prices for the performance seems to continue to drop, but at the same time, the programs find ways to demand more performance at the same rate.


J_Test_Whole to NE_Z_7.7.14.jpg

Alan Caro

[Harry Hagan]

Dell lost my business years ago due to their poor customer service and unscrupulous business practices (repeated lying about proprietary part availability).

[Cody Kemble]

Dell lost my business years ago due to their poor customer service and unscrupulous business practices (repeated lying about proprietary part availability).

+1 I was tired of talking to my "friend" at Dell tech support named "George." The outsourced call centers really drove me crazy. After about three transfers you get someone who actuall understands your problem and isn't reading a script. I went with Apple and have been pleased (quite expensive though). I recently bought my wife a tiny laptop by Acer to run her die-cutting machine and it works well. For your higher demand needs I would go with the Lenovo. I don't think there is a better value laptop available at that pricepoint.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I'll have to buy an office license and a new copy of quick books pro.

Depending on your needs, you may be able to skip the Office license and use LibreOffice (or Apache OpenOffice) instead. If you use MSO macros, then you probably need to stay with MSO (since the macros are mostly not compatible. Same is true for Access documents. I have written long complicated (in structure) books using these rather than MSO with no issues. By long, I mean 600 pages.