As iron sharpens iron

[Moses Yoder]

That phrase "As iron sharpens iron" was written approximately 3000 years ago. A pastor that was counseling me during a rough patch used it frequently, from the book of Proverbs attributed to King Solomon, and I have since then been a little curios about it. Here is the whole verse; Proverbs 27:17 New King James Version (NKJV) 17 As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. from BibleGateway.com This leads to curiosity about their sharpening techniques then and also now, especially as pertains to the sharpening steel. At the auction for us kids I bought my dad's sharpening steel which brings back many memories. It is labeled R Diek, made in Germany. A search on R Diek brings up nothing of value. What I am really kind of wondering about is the value of sharpening iron on iron. In the proverb I suppose "iron" would refer to all sorts of steel. My dad's steel seems to have longitudinal serrations in the steel, visible lines. I assume this steel would have to be harder than the knife; it has lasted my dad's lifetime and is seemingly untouched on the steel; the handle got soaked for a long period of time sometime and the finish is ruined on that side but otherwise the steel looks about like new. Kind of wondering what the mechanics are of using the steel on a knife. This is my first youtube video, I do not have editing capabilities yet so take it easy.

[george wilson]

So,what's the question? A knife steel(Probably labeled R. DICK) is as hard as a file,and is a file,in fact,with longitudinal teeth. I doubt seriously that they had them in biblical times. But,the bible has been translated a number of times. The one we use was translated in the 17th. C.. I don't know if they had knife steels at that time either. The Romans did have FILES made of steel . a file will sharpen iron,of course. This could be what the reference to iron sharpening iron is. Hardly anyone back then would have known what steel really was,as opposed to iron. The whole thing could just be a mis translation.

[Moses Yoder]

I just read the terms of service and did not find any rule violations based on the fact of not asking a clear question. In fact, it does not say anything at all about the purpose of Sawmill Creek being to learn something. Under the title "General Terms" it says this; "Sawmill Creek is an online community where woodworkers may come together to share and discuss a common interest." With that in mind, I propose sharpening to be a common interest in the hand tool forum, and the purpose of this discussion is to focus on sharpening iron with iron which apparently has been done for about 3000 years and is still going on today. I value your input and have learned a great deal from you.

So,what's the question? A knife steel(Probably labeled R. DICK) is as hard as a file,and is a file,in fact,with longitudinal teeth. I doubt seriously that they had them in biblical times. But,the bible has been translated a number of times. The one we use was translated in the 17th. C.. I don't know if they had knife steels at that time either. The Romans did have FILES made of steel at that time. a file will sharpen iron,of course. This could be what the reference to iron sharpening iron is. Hardly anyone back then would have known what steel really was,as opposed to iron. The whole thing could just be a mis translation.

[Andrew Hughes]

I use a steel to straighten out edges on my kitchen knives.I see chefs a lot on tv Using a steel the wrong way,At least I was taught to draw out the edge.
After the edge get toothy or flat I go out to the stones.I do think the steel helps keep the wire on the edge longer.As long as no one using the knife on the counter top.Most of my kitchen knives are Henckels.Or Wustoff .

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Good day Moses,

Funny you mention this, as my friend used this term with me yesterday. I was actaully planning on looking it up to see if it is a biblical reference. I was also thinking, "Does iron really sharpen iron, or does stone?" But I guess it would, especially back in Biblical times.

What you have there is a steel, which is actually not used to sharpen the knife, but rather to keep the edge straight and for lack of better words, dress the edge before and after use. It looks like a good one- very hefty.

[george wilson]

The steel does sharpen the edge. It is a specialized type of fine file,which does make very fine shavings as it is passed over the knife edge.

Iron does not sharpen iron that I know of. One has to be harder than the other,and have some means of removing a t least small amounts of metal. Hence,I GUESS the bible may refer to the use of a file to sharpen an iron tool.

[Ron Hock]

I've found that most steels are really just "vertical files" and that the teeth are way too coarse for my knives and my taste. I don't like how much knife they file away and I hate the ragged edge they leave. On our knives I use a steel that is smooth, like a burnisher for a scraper. The idea is to draw out the edge and refine it by pressing it along the steel burnisher. You can use your scraper burnisher but it may be a bit short to be very effective. I apply the edge to the steel at a steeper angle than Moses is using with his Dad's steel, and I press fairly hard. The speed is not important but I keep it moving. I hold the tip of the steel against a counter top to keep it steady and work the blade away from the handle, toward the tip (don't hit the couter!) The action is as if you were shaving shavings from the steel -- like cutting the meat for a gyro sandwich. This is almost all I ever do to keep my knives sharp. I rarely use abrasives on them at all. Frequent burnishing is all they need to be at their best.

[george wilson]

Did I offend you somehow? Not my intention. I just put a lot of effort into teaching you about brass casting. Then you just changed your mind. Maybe I'd be better off not answering your questions. I think it is most unusual to go read the terms of service over this.

[Joe Tilson]

An Iron with an edge can be sharpened somewhat(burnished) with a another iron piece. The symbolism here is as in friends discussing things together, much like we do here, we come away with a sharper mind. We keep each other sharp and wise. I know sometimes I come off as harsh. It is not intended, but some take it that way. Let's keep each other sharp, not aggravated.

[george wilson]

My mind is none too sharp after not sleeping all night from pain. I hate to lay there awake for 8 hours. Then,my little dog escapes and runs into my room at 2:00 A.M.,jumping into my bed,and jamming herself against me so I can't change positions(which I NEED to do).

[Joe Tilson]

George,
I will be having shoulder surgery July 25, because the pain is so bad I just can't stand it anymore. Can surely feel for you. Getting sleep doesn't come so easy these days. Also have a bad back, which doesn't help. Sorry you're not sleeping well. Your mind seems pretty sharp to me. Hang in there.

[Richard Wolgemuth]

While I am a woodworking rookie, I have learned a thing or two while working on two degrees, more or less in the field of biblical studies. There is an interesting passage in 1 Samuel which says that at that time there was "no blacksmith in the land of Israel". I.e. - the Israelites had no means of producing iron/steel tools (I will mention the 1 Samuel text would predate the Proverb by a couple hundred years). So the Israelites did what many of us would do: get your neighbor to do the job for you. The Israelite would go next door to the Philistines to buy their tools and have them sharpened. However, by the time this proverb was written the Israelites had already conquered the Philistines and likely learned the ways of the forge. I don't think it is too far of a stretch to imagine this bit of wisdom coming out of the experience of making ones own tools. Maybe no one cares,but I think forums are for sharing obscure bits of information, for whatever it may be worth.

[george wilson]

At the time,the Philistines were a very advanced and superior race. The had technology in advance of the Israelites,which included knowing how to work and make iron. They blended in with other cultures so easily that they were absorbed into them when they were conquered,which contributed to their lack of survival as a separate culture.

I just had a week of much less sleep from nursing my wife who had back surgery. Luckily she did not need a titanium implant like I have. I'm starting to need MORE,as my stenosis is coming back. I already had an implant several years ago. But,the vertebra above the implant does all the bending,and now I'm needing another implant on top of that one. I won't be able to get my shoes and socks on after that. Guess it'll be loafers eventually. I have had 14 surgeries by now.

[george wilson]

Iron could also "sharpen" iron by hammering it out into a sharper edge,the way scythes used to be sharpened. I don't know how far back that went. In the beginning,wheat was CUT with sharp blades .Later on it began to be SLASHED with less keen blades.

Hammering the edge sharp fell into the latter category.

[David Weaver]

There are still manufacturers making new peining jigs and anvils for scythes, and as far as I know, a couple of makers of scythe blades and snaths in western europe, and probably eastern europe. I believe there are still a few small subsistence farmers in former soviet areas, etc, who use scythes to mow.

There's a hobbyist movement for the stuff over here, too, but I've never actually seen anyone using one here - just videos on youtube that end up in my recommendation list after I view something woodworking or farming. Given the stuff I've seen, it does look like the peining is only to thin an edge, and then the peined edge stoned and maintained with a stone until it becomes too blunt and needs to be peined thin again.