As iron sharpens iron

[Larry McGarrah]

To my understanding a steel does not sharpen a knife. A whetstone sharpens a knife by putting a smooth edge on the blade. This is good for a straight in cutting motion like a plane and not always good for a knife. A steel in fact roughs up the smooth sharp edge of the knife producing small serrations on the edge much like small teeth on a hand saw. Since most knives are used with a sawing motion these teeth cut better than a smooth cutting edge. None of you would try to cut through a piece of wood using the spine of your hand saw. A sharp smooth edged knife will cut nicely but the fine serrations will make it cut better

[Brian Ashton]

I've never thought of that statement as being so hard to understand, for lack of a better word. If you rub any two pieces of identical material by each other they will eventually wear away, relative to the amount of contact time in a specific location and force. so if you rub a piece of iron blade that has a cross sectional width of say 1/4" across a 12" plate of iron of course the blade with eventually get sharper. On a molecular level you are removing molecules and because the blades has a substantially smaller surface area it will lose an equivalent amount of molecules... In other words it will wear down quicker. And after all what is sharpening, it's when you wear down the edge of a tool so that it produces a desired edge.

If you had the time you could sharpen a blade using only paper, simply because even though the steel is much harder and resilient it will still lose molecules as it is rubbed against the paper. It would take a great deal of time but the end result would be an incredibly sharp edge because the loss of molecules would be so slow and gentle it could quite conceivably produce an edge that was only a couple molecules across, considering the ultimate edge is 1 molecule in width.

[David Weaver]

To my understanding a steel does not sharpen a knife. A whetstone sharpens a knife by putting a smooth edge on the blade. This is good for a straight in cutting motion like a plane and not always good for a knife. A steel in fact roughs up the smooth sharp edge of the knife producing small serrations on the edge much like small teeth on a hand saw. Since most knives are used with a sawing motion these teeth cut better than a smooth cutting edge. None of you would try to cut through a piece of wood using the spine of your hand saw. A sharp smooth edged knife will cut nicely but the fine serrations will make it cut better

It depends. If the steel is a slotted steel, then its intention is as ron says, which is to be a poor man's hone and remove metal. I don't know how common those slotted steels would've been eons ago, but they are a horrible thing to have if someone can manage to use bench stones.

The polished steels do something different - they consolidate an edge that is of proper hardness to use them which is somewhere in the range of 57/58 or lower. You can literally use a fine india stone on something like a wusthof knife and then steel it on a smooth steel and have a very very good edge.

The serrations thing has been around a while, but butchers don't abide by it, nor do fish cutters. If an edge is polished well, it will absolutely cut better than an edge with serrations on meat and vegetables, and on a truly sharp and slightly angled knife like a japanese knife, it will cut bread better than a bread knife, too, with a polished edge. It's my opinion that a bread knife exists only to allow people to cut bread without having the ability to sharpen their chef's knife or parer. My chef's and paring knives cut bread better than any bread knife I've used, and they are both thin edges that are polished.

Edges at 60+ hardness will nick with a polished steel, and will also not strop as well as an edge that's 57/58 hardness.

A person using a polished steel needs to have backup abrasives, though, because edge damage on a german knife accumulates pretty quickly and sharpening will have to be done several times a year even on a properly used knife. A well cared-for japanese knife will need only to be sharpened probably about the same number of times, and very little sharpening each time - no steeling between. Damage from a ham-handed user can be catastrophic if they bang the edge into things, though, or try to scrape something hard with the knife.

[george wilson]

I haven't actually used a scythe,though we did have to make a bunch for the agricultural program in the museum. I'd much rather have to make a bunch of them than use them to make a living!!

[David Weaver]

The austrian types look relatively pleasant to use, you can still stand upright. The english types look like a self torture device.

The austrian scythe blades are cheap enough that if I had anywhere to use one, I'd buy one just for play. A peining block could be made pretty easily, and used with any moderately heavy polished hammer.

[paul cottingham]

My dad used a scythe on our farm to chop feed for our sheep. He sharpened it with an oil stone he never oiled. The blade and the stone were still going strong (although somewhat dished!) 25 years later.
now I wish I still had it to chop down dandelions and weeds in my backyard....

[paul cottingham]

[QUOTE=george wilson;2285879]So,what's the question? A knife steel(Probably labeled R. DICK) is as hard as a file,and is a file,in fact,with longitudinal teeth. I doubt seriously that they had them in biblical times. But,the bible has been translated a number of times. The one we use was translated in the 17th. C.. I don't know if they had knife steels at that time either. The Romans did have FILES made of steel . a file will sharpen iron,of course. This could be what the reference to iron sharpening iron is. Hardly anyone back then would have known what steel really was,as opposed to iron. The whole thing could just be a mis translation.[/QUOTE

My degree is in Roman history, with a specialization in Roman technology. The Romans never made super strong steel, I don't believe, nor would they have made particularly smooth steel, either. I don't believe they had the technology. In fact, steel was likely more of a happy accident. The Romans weren't particularly strong on scientific method.
I had never heard they made files, George. Learn something new every day.

[Moses Yoder]

Well, now I know more about steels and sharpening iron with iron than ever before. I cannot find any reference in the TOS to the idea that we are not allowed to quote books.

[george wilson]

I did not mean to say the Romans made super steels. Their steel was made by folding iron repeatedly in a charcoal file as far as I have been able to find out. It was a chancy business,heavily dependent upon personal skill. The Viking s had swords made from 1085 steel,which has been tested as such. It is still the same carbon content steel sold for making springs(which a sword needs to be). Some of their best swords were imported by trading from central Europe(I forget where offhand). They were not too far from the Roman period. The Romans of course had planes that were capable of planing wood(however inefficiently).

Even in the 18th. C.,steel making in England was pretty much an art. 19th. C.,too. Crucible steel was invented by Huntsman in that period. The rest was heavily casehardened steel rods welded together and called "shear steel." If it was folded again and re welded,a higher grade called "Double Shear Steel" was made. It was composed of hard and soft layers. Huntsman was a watch maker who was frustrated by springs made of shear steels,which broke or bent. He homogenized steel for the first time by cooking it in crucibles. This was still done until fairly recent times in England. If you see an old tool that says "Cast steel",it is crucible steel that was cast into a octagonal mold,then made into objects. Indeed ,the French sent Reamour,a wealthy nobleman who was interested in technical things,to spy on the English. They did not know how the English made steel. They relied upon natural deposits for their steel. I read Reamour's Memoirs years ago. A very interesting book. He never did actually find out for certain what the English did. But,he did figure it out on his own very accurately(though I don't recall if his methods were actually put into use in France. Reamour came up with a method for making "wrought iron" out of cast iron. He baked cast iron at high heat in an oven till the carbon was driven off. We call it malleable iron today. At that time,objects chiseled from wrought iron were highly valuable,often worth their weight in gold,because it was hard to do. He thought he had hit upon a gold mine of valuable products with that invention.

I am suspicious that the Ancient Greeks even had files. How did they manage to make the gears on the Antikithera mechanism without files? Or do other operations? Possibly with shaped slip stones? It would have been uphill all the way on an already difficult and highly ingenious mechanism. We have no idea what has been lost through time and wars,and corrosion.

It wasn't until about 1830 that much began to be understood about chemistry. And little was known by then.

The Romans also had nuts and bolts,too. This means they had to have the necessary tools to make threads and to thread internal threads too. This implies that steel of decent (usable)quality was made somehow. I'm sure it wasn't common,and was heavily dependent upon personal skill,empirical knowledge,and a lot of superstition thrown in ,as was English steel making even in the 18th. C.. They didn't really know what it was that made the steel hard. The stuff they threw in happily included carbonaceous material like wood. They threw in other stuff like urine of a red haired boy,urine of a wine drinking Friar,etc..

[Cody Kemble]

I just saw someone using a scythe the other day to trim longer grass by their mailbox.

[Kevin Godshall]

I'll throw my 2 cents in here for consideration:

I've worked over 15 years in high production meat processing work. I cut my teeth in a facility that dressed 630 hogs per hour. I am very familiar with sharpening knives and with using a steel. Here is a YouTube vid of Alton Brown demonstrating the "basics" of steeling a knife: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRUYAgrsoLw There are many ways to hold a steel and get the same results (dependent upon environment, skill level, comfort, etc). Alton shows a way that keeps one from getting their thumb sliced off. (Watch Moses' vid, to see a thumb in the "danger zone" and how it could easily be cut.) Anyway, enough on that part of the subject......

I also have taught Sunday School, and occasionally fill pulpits as needed when pastors are away. Here is how I approach understanding this text:

In the original Hebrew language, as written in the book of Proverbs, the word "sharpen" (Strong's H2300), can mean "to sharpen" or "to keep keen".

In the second part of the text, the word "countenance" (Strong's H6440) literally means "face".

Therefore, a better translation of this text may literally be: As iron keeps iron keen, so a man keeps the face of his friend keen.

Thinking about this practically, when one is having a bad day, or things aren't going right, and you encounter a true friend, isn't that act enough to bring a smile to your face, or to change your mood from one of dismay and despair, to one of hope and comfort?

What I take away from this passage, is akin to being salt and light- Our lives should have an impact on those we come in contact with. As salt seasons and preserves, so our friendship should be so genuine and meaningful, that we have an immediate and positive on impact of those that we are privileged to journey with through this world.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Biblical references to woodworking and related subjects are certainly allowed since they present a historical perspective. This is no different than a reference to any other historical text or a video showing historically correct procedures. Equally allowed would be a reference to a Hindu , Muslim, or Buddhist quotation as long as it was germane to the topic. How often do we refer to the Zen of working with wood?

What is not allowed is discussion or argument about religion in general or any specific religion. With people of every ilk and persuasion at SMC this becomes very divisive and brings nothing but bad feelings. There are plenty of other places on the internet other than SMC to discuss, cogitate, or argue religious beliefs.

[David Weaver]

If anyone out there can find a smooth steel for their german or inexpensive kitchen knives, they'll find value in it (the thread), too.

I use the F.Dick packing house polished steel, which is the only inexpensive non-serrated steel I've ever found. it's close enough to polished that if you weren't satisfied with it as it comes, you could finish the job with a buffing wheel.

It allows you to get a shaving sharp edges off of something otherwise not very fine finishing (like a 1000 grit diamond stone, which is probably about the easiest thing to keep in the kitchen).

I don't sharpen any of my friends' faces, but i do sharpen their knives sometimes.

[george wilson]

Back in the 60's,when I taught shop a few years,I used a Proto screwdriver for a burnisher,having little money for equipment. My students learned to chisel cut sawmill bandsaw blades and make them into scrapers. I never saw students get so excited as they did oner the big fluffy shavings they were able to make with their scrapers.

They made the work benches,too. And,I can tell you,they did not deface them either,like ordinary students who get handed everything. They were very proud of those benches.

[Mel Fulks]

I've never seen a steel like you describe, David. Interesting. I once worked with a guy who used agate jewelers burnishers on his woodworking scrapers as well as gold leaf. Would an agate burnisher work as well on a kitchen knife as the steel ?