How many new woodworkers are scared away by the crap

[Tony Wilkins]

I got into woodworking because I thought it would be relaxing but every time I ask a question or look for encouragement it comes down to contention. My woodworking tools will be on ebay soon.

[Sean Hughto]

Could you be more specific? Are you talking about threads here?

To answer your question about new woodworkers being scared away: I would think almost none. If a new woodworker is drawn to create in wood, that jones to create should hardly be so weak that it's extinguished by dipsticks on the internet saying stupid things. If one doesn't like the forums, but does like woodworking, avoiding the forums seems like the obvious answer as opposed to abandoning a hobby one is supposedly drawn to.

[Cory Waldrop]

Tony,

My experience with looking for information online has been that there are a ton of different opinions and I have had to filter through the information to find sources I trust and respect and I kind of keep to that moving forward. If you do something similar you should be able to ignore information that is not useful to you and ignore the things that frustrate you. At least it has worked for me. I also try not to spend too much time researching and get to building. After all woodworking is an active hobby and if it is not fun for someone, they are either doing it wrong or it is not for them. Maybe sit back and think about what you want to accomplish with this hobby and think about how you can do that and maybe weed out the things that are preventing you from that goal.

Good luck.

[Zach Dillinger]

Tony, the worst thing a beginner can do is try to learn how to make furniture by "learning" solely from forums and blogs. Almost every one is nothing more than a place for the hive mind to assimilate new people to the currently-popular way of doing something, which will change like Michigan weather (i.e. every 15 minutes). Then other guys come in with a different point of view which triggers the contention.

If you have an interest in woodworking, find someone who can teach you in person. Read old books. Read new books (which are often just reinterpretations of the information in old books). Study the old pieces. Think for yourself. Try things for yourself. Screw things up. You will cut yourself. You will bleed a little. Its the only way to learn. If you allow yourself to get trapped in the forum hive mind you will find it very difficult to grow as a craftsman. Don't think tooling can replace skill and experience. It can't.

And, please don't think that forums resemble anything close to reality. Many things are said online that would never be said in person, and for two reasons. One, often tone and subtext are lost which makes it difficult to discern when someone is kidding / having a little fun. Two, people say things online that border on disrespectful, things that they would never say to a real live person without risking a punch in the nose. So, its a perfect storm of garbage that makes a forum a very difficult place to do anything constructive. It can be done, but you need a solid base on which to build.

Another excellent resource for information is the Old Tools email list.

[David Weaver]

You ultimately have to decide if you want to work wood. If you do, it won't matter if you do or don't read the forums. The best way for you to really own your knowledge or progress in woodworking is to go light on the guidance from people and heavy on the time spent at the bench with some reflection on what's happening, etc.

I personally think a lot of people get cranky on internet forums because they're on them somewhere sometime that they are not able to woodwork, and they'd rather be working wood. When you are on the forums for a while, it doesn't really do anything. When you get a few hours of sweat time in the shop, all of the sudden, the woodworking urge is satisfied and the desire to get on the forum and contend a point is sort of like "who cares what anyone else thinks about this?".

If the woodworking isn't satisfying to overcome perceived slights on the forum, though, then that's a different thing. It's a hobby, and if it doesn't make you happy, why bother?

I've noticed the same thing that zach describes, but mostly because I am one of the few who is as direct in person as I am on here, and sometimes it gets people offended in person. I am always surprised by making a point about something in person and seeing everyone else shying away from doing anything other than shielding whatever they're talking about with a perceived need for some specific set of manners. It's just a way of holding everything and everyone at arms length, and it isn't very stimulating or credible.

[lowell holmes]

I would suggest quit reading the forums and retire to the shop for some pleasant time.
If you need skill building (I sure do), attend a class somewhere.
I've never seen frowns at a woodworking class.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I read through your recent posts and I thought you got some great feedback and encouragement, such as on your dovetail post. If it helps, I teach woodworking (on weekends, not for a full living... Yet) and I still screw up dovetails now and then. In fact, I am about to undertake a tool cabinet build and cringe at all those dovetails, but once I get started on them I remember how much I love the feel of a chisel trimming slivers of wood and soon the project become relaxing.

I should note that not one person has come forward yet to buy your tools, so it seems you have some supporters here. Honestly, we are all toolmongers, and usually a threat to sell all your tools would have gotten a reply of "Hey, what tools ya got and how much ya want?" :-) the fact that nobody tried to buy them means we are behind you, so don't quit yet. Every mistake makes you better.

[george wilson]

You guys do not know crap until you visit a machinist forum!!!!

[Dave Anderson NH]

I would echo much of what the others have said. Before the internet I learned quite a bit from my Dad. After that I read and experimented and as Zach said, cut myself, made expensive firewood, and gradually improved. The largest breakthrough came 20+ years ago when I joined our NH Guild and partook of classes, group projects, being mentored in hand tool use, watching demonstrations live with superior craftsmen. While forums and blogs are OK, they are by nature opinionated and feedback to questions can veer off into side issues or not be timely enough to help if you need immediate input. Think of the absurdity of one hand on the chisel and the other typing on your keyboard. Videos and Youtube are a lot better, but still the problem arises of not being able to ask questions. To my mind nothing beats learning from a live class or demo and if it's one to one, the instruction can't get any better. If possible take a class or two, join a club, and more than anything else actually make things. The end result isn't important at first, the goal is to improve each time you repeat an operation. What is an acceptable result to you now will make you cringe in a few years and you will want to hide or burn it.

Finally, make the mental decision to have a positive experience. Athletes call it "psyching yourself up". As a moderator I can't say much except to say that sometimes the things that go on in forums bear no resemblance to the real world.

[David Weaver]

As a moderator I can't say much except to say that sometimes the things that go on in forums bear no resemblance to the real world.

I'd agree with that, and not necessarily for whether or not people are nice to each other, but the subject matter also tends to be very esoteric sometimes and on the other end, driven by people who don't have enough experience to give advice to someone who just wants to "make things".

Time at the bench is irreplaceable. The forums you can do with or without, but they're always going to be full of 30 different opinions, including some that:
* include only minimalist tools
* include only expensive tools
* tell you that any method will work
* tell you that only one method will work

etc. learning from doing is far ahead for actual woodworking, and coming back to the forums when you get in a rut on something and learning by doing isn't cutting it is not a bad idea (the advice costs $0).

If certain people get you cranked but you otherwise like the forum, use the ignore button in the forum.

[Mel Fulks]

There is some debate on forums about minutiae, because some enjoy it. But when someone needs direct info or clarification they usually get it. The opposite of the forum instruction is working as an apprentice, no angst there. It's "do it
like this", "don't worry about that part now","I don't care how your granpa did his" and ,of course " do it like this or get out".

[Zach Dillinger]

use the ignore button in the forum.

Is there an ignore button on SMC?

[Prashun Patel]

Hang on a second, Tony. I was following your Dovetail thread and I can't read a single negative, contentious post. You received lots of advice and encouragement. (I guess this post is contentious )

I occasionally get turned off too, but I learned (am learning) almost entirely from this website (and practice). Just like outside, there are WAY MORE people who want you to succeed than wish to put you down for their own reasons. Stick with it, and stick with us. As long as your posts continue to be in the spirit of the forum here, I think you'll find a lot of fans and friends and mentors here.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way.

I've had the exact opposite experience. I'm not new to woodworking in general but I'm still pretty new to using hand tools. People in this forum have been incredibly encouraging and helpful. I wish I could contribute more to help someone else.

There may be people who have negative things to say but they exist everywhere. I mostly just ignore them. Wading through conflicting and suspect information can be an issue but it's hardly unique to woodworking or this forum. Find people you trust and give their opinions more weight or try things out to see what works for you.

I don't know that I find woodworking relaxing. I do find it satisfying. Because of the quite and pace, I find hand tool work peaceful and even more fulfilling. I went out to the shop a couple of nights ago to true and square a small pine board just for satisfaction of doing it. I haven't been able to get out there for a couple weeks and I missed it.

I got into woodworking because I thought it would be relaxing but every time I ask a question or look for encouragement it comes down to contention. My woodworking tools will be on ebay soon.

[Jim Koepke]

...

The forums you can do with or without, but they're always going to be full of 30 different opinions, including some that:
* include only minimalist tools
* include only expensive tools
* tell you that any method will work
* tell you that only one method will work

David,

You left out those that will tell you precisely "the one and only way" to do something they have never done themselves.

jtk