Lie Nielsen A2 issue?

[glenn bradley]

I have had problems with Lee Valley blade edges crumbling but never Lie Nielsen. The A2 blades are my favorite.

Different experience here . Seems how we sharpen, what we do with the cutters and how we do it must influence our experiences.

[lowell holmes]

That's why I made my post. If my edge needs sharpening during a session, I just stop and hone it, strop it and go back to work. That's how I learned when I was going to classes at Homestead Heritage.

After I learned to freehand sharpen, it was easy, actually the time sharpening, 2 or 3 minutes, is a restful break. I don't have much edge problem.

I have LV A2 irons in my bench planes. I think the steel is good. I do use the ruler trick.

[Winton Applegate]

sharpness is not everything

Splutter gag hack cough

WHAT !

I thought . . . think . . . it IS . . .
(I think) No it IS

Sharpness IS everything

There I said it.

I must say I am always surprised when I read threads like this. What I mean is we just had this discussion. Lines on end grain / edge breaking down / what to do.
I am kind of shocked as well after I / we talked about sharpening . . . sharp vs SHARP cutting curls off a single hair.

Maybe I didn’t make it clear those were all A2 blades. LN and Varitas.
I kind of thought my A2 blades were getting dull fast but then I was planing eight foot lengths of some of the hardest wood in the world bubinga and purple heart.

It seemed the same LN or Varitas

I am pretty darn sure no other blade would have held up long enough to make a noticeable difference. My very high quality Japanese plane blade seemed about the same sharpness wise and durability wise , after I back bevelled it just a hint to stop the tear out. I didn’t continue using it that way. Not the kind of wood it is for; just wanted to see how it would do. Now I know.

Probably a good idea to revisit the "Scratches on end grain" thread and "What is causing this chatter" thread.
Speaking of end grain . . . I got your end grain right here (last two photos) . . . notice the LN using an A2 cleaning up the edges. Notice the bare wood mirror like surface ? Sharp can make a difference.

[Patrick Carpenter]

That would be ideal, but in a production environment (i.e. at work) I can't really do that. I'm on the job site most of the time, but even in the shop, a lot of employers have a real problem seeing someone stop and take out a sharpening stone. A strop... whew. My current boss would settle for ridicule, but some would go for the full blow up. It's one of the unwritten rules. Show up at least 10 minutes early everyday. Sharpen your tools on your own time.
I guess I should have mentioned that I have other blades in Blue or White steel that do just fine, and my old Stanley (which was inferior in most other ways) did a little better on longevity too.

[Patrick Carpenter]

Splutter gag hack cough

WHAT !

I thought . . . think . . . it IS . . .
(I think) No it IS

Sharpness IS everything

There I said it.

I must say I am always surprised when I read threads like this. What I mean is we just had this discussion. Lines on end grain / edge breaking down / what to do.
I am kind of shocked as well after I / we talked about sharpening . . . sharp vs SHARP cutting curls off a single hair.

Maybe I didn’t make it clear those were all A2 blades. LN and Varitas.
I kind of thought my A2 blades were getting dull fast but then I was planing eight foot lengths of some of the hardest wood in the world bubinga and purple heart.

It seemed the same LN or Varitas

I am pretty darn sure no other blade would have held up long enough to make a noticeable difference. My very high quality Japanese plane blade seemed about the same sharpness wise and durability wise , after I back bevelled it just a hint to stop the tear out. I didn’t continue using it that way. Not the kind of wood it is for; just wanted to see how it would do. Now I know.

Probably a good idea to revisit the "Scratches on end grain" thread and "What is causing this chatter" thread.
Speaking of end grain . . . I got your end grain right here (last two photos) . . . notice the LN using an A2 cleaning up the edges. Notice the bare wood mirror like surface ? Sharp can make a difference.

I couldn't agree more. Sharpness is everything. Once you get something that will make something look like your last photo, it's hard to settle. That is awesome. by the way. What is your sharpening setup?

[Patrick Carpenter]

Raise the angle a few degrees. If you still have issues grind 1/16" of the tip of the blade.

Also, when the edge fails quickly like its been doing check to see if its rolling or chipping. If its just chipping a bit its probably just a matter of using a higher angle or grinding a bit off to get past the bit of steel at the tip that might be a little weak. If the edge is rolling (e.g. if there is a burr on the back of the blade after a few strokes) the blade may be too soft.

Even from companies like LN and LV sometimes the steel at the tip of the blade is bit decarbonized and need to behoned/ground past. And every once in a while something gets past the goalie. I don't have a lot LN tools, but in general I have found their A2 top quality.

Yep. It seems like a few people agree that raising the angle a bit should be the first resort. I'm not a real big fan of micro bevels, but I guess that could be an option too.
I'm glad you mentioned chipping vs. rolling at the edge. I have checked out the edge under magnification (60x) and it looks like it's definitely rolling. In fact if I let it get too bad I can feel kind of like a serrated burr. A lot of my other tools are hand-forged Japanese steel which I think is generally quite a bit harder than LN's A2. Maybe it's just something I'll need to get used to.

[Patrick Carpenter]

As others have stated, bevel/micro bevel angles are important with the A2 iron. Using 3M microfinishing film to sharpen, I've been very happy with the performance of LN A2 irons: picture shows a 1 thou shaving on top (cherry, using LN 4.5 with HAF) and a 3 thou shaving on bottom (maple end grain, using LN 103). Can't remember the last time I sharpened either one of them. Attachment 293403

Nice. A few others have mentioned adjusting the angle a bit. Any suggestions for the 60 1/2 iron? I have been sticking with the 25° factory angle so far.

[Warren Mickley]

David B. Years ago I was asked by the bookbinder's shop in Wmsbg. to teach them how to sharpen their tools. They were using those little pot metal hobby planes that took old fashioned double edged razor blades for skiving their leather. I tried one of those as a kid,but the blade stuck out too much to do a decent job on balsa wood. It just grabbed and took way too coarse a cut.

They still didn't know what to use,so I made them some at least more decent looking brass planes that still used the razor blades to skive their leather. Some time,and a different supervisor later,we had another round of how to sharpen tools. I did some research,and it seemed like the 18th. C. book binders(or,I should say LEATHER SKIVERS)(probably supplied the book binders with tissue thin leathers),laid the skin over an inclined,rounded wooden "horse",and skived it with draw knife like tools that were razor sharp. I made up a quick setup,and we tried skiving leather very thin. It took considerable skill though(and surely YEARS of practice(),so they never adopted the method. You might know more about skiving leather than I do. It wasn't my trade,or my main concern!!

Last summer I was at a craft fair and met a bookbinder who had been trained at Williamsburg. When I told him I had given a sharpening lesson to a Williamsburg bookbinder in 1983, he handed me his skiving knife and asked if I could sharpen it. When I brought it back the next day, he tried it for about two seconds and said to his daughter "Give him a book." He gave me a handsome book he had bound, leather spine and fine marbled cover, just for that fine edge.

[Phil Gaudio]

I use a 30º primary bevel with a few degree micro bevel: seems to work.

[john zulu]

30º is required on A2 to prevent the edge crumbling especially on shooting the board.

[Derek Cohen]

30º is required on A2 to prevent the edge crumbling especially on shooting the board.

Before switching to a PMV-11 blade in the LV LA Jack, I used an A2 blade with a 25 degree edge to shoot for many years - all without the slightest suggestion of the edge crumbling.

I do have a couple of comparisons of steel types in plane blade, however these were used in shooting planes on end grain, not bench planes on face grain. In other words, the emphasis was on a combination of impact- and abrasion resistance, not abrasion resistance alone.

In short (with the OP's block plane in mind), BU planes with a 25 degree bevel should outlast higher cutting angles in a BD plane. Lee Valley A2 steel performed extremely well in this configuration, supporting my comments over the years.

The two reviews:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...tingPlane.html

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...eirBlades.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Adam Cruea]

Never had a problem with LN's A2 at 30 degrees or greater. The edge might roll over after a while, but I've never really seen cracking and chipping.

[Chris Griggs]

I'm glad you mentioned chipping vs. rolling at the edge. I have checked out the edge under magnification (60x) and it looks like it's definitely rolling.

Just to clarify, when I say roll I mean after just a few strokes. I had a very early made (as in when they first started making them) LV No. 6 that I got off ebay that had a blade that was too soft (which they replaced even though I bough tit used). In my LIMITED experience when its failing and rolling becasue of softness (vs. from regular dulling) it's pretty apparent. Just a few strokes may roll big old burr on the back. Feeling some amount of rolling after extended use doesn't necessarily indicate a problem.

Try this as a test. Hone the blade at 30 degrees, making certain that it is really sharp and that there are no nicks or anything left from the previous dulling/failure. Put it in the plane and take maybe 5 strokes on some end grain....if after just a few strokes there is a noticeable burr on the back that's an indication that it may be too soft.

If you think it might not be hardened properly you can always send it to LN and have them test it.

(please take all advice from me regarding steel and metallurgy with a tiny grain of salt. I am speaking only from what I found to be the traits of the blade I've had that was too soft.)

[george wilson]

Warren,who was the book binder you met? I also gave some more sharpening lessons in that shop about 1983. That's where I met my wife,who I've been with 30 years now. I taught her to sharpen her spokeshave blade. The only guys I can think of who were there at the time are Bruce Plumley,the master,Bob Lyon,and possibly another guy who's name just escapes me right now,though I know it perfectly well. The benefits of codeine!!


Winton: a right smart stack of irons,polished slicker than an eyeball! Are those for a BU plane? Your stone seems a teeny bit concave. Only would matter if fitting to a chip breaker.

[Jim Koepke]

Only one of my high usage planes, an LN #62, has an A1/A2 blade. (not sure which)

It is mostly used for shooting end grain. It has had often developed nicks or chips. It is honed at 25º. The chipping seems to have diminished as it has been honed over time. Mostly it is just touched up as needed. Not any heavy grinding to remove a lot of metal.

Maybe in another year or two my honing will take it down to 'the good metal.'

jtk