Shop built dovetail saws

[Mike Allen1010]

I have built a number of back saws from parts over the years, and as I've mentioned in previous posts, I always find it a challenge to end up with 100% straight saw plate/tooth line. I believe David Weaver shared his similar experience in his post "I hate saw kits".

I tend to favor thinner and longer saw plates than are typically found in vintage back saws, which certainly doesn't help with this challenge. I guess the reason I like thinner plates (.015, .018, .020" for dovetail/smaller tenon saws), if they cut quickly and I think they are a little bit easier to get right on the layout line as you have less width of the curve to consider.C

Candidly, I'm not 100% sure of the "greater accuracy" with thinner plates deal; with a wider plate (that is easier to get straight that helps with accuracy) and you really just have to align the cutting edge of the tooth line with the layout Mark.

Below are some pictures of my third-generation dovetail saw with parts from Ron Bontz: .025" x 12" long, 16 PPI filed rip with a Maple tote and TFWW split nuts. I was able to get the saw plate/tooth line straight and I like the profiles on the tote a little better.

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The lessons I learned are:

* It is easier for me to do all the shaping of the tote before cutting the mortice for the saw back and a slot for the plate. except for the cheeks adjacent to the saw back mortice, I do these last.

* I wait until the tote is complete with mortice for saw back cut, holes for saw nuts and slot for the plate cut and then dry fit the saw back and saw plate to mark the holes on the saw plate, before permanently attaching the plate to back with Loctite. I struggle with visualizing where the holes need to go in the plate and how much the plate needs to project out of the back so that everything lines up with the tote. The only way I've been able to do this is to actually assemble it, Mark plate and then punch/drill the holes in the saw plate.

Lately I've been making the holes in the plate slightly oversize in an effort to avoid any potential tension that might cause a bend in the plate when assembled. I'm not sure if this makes a difference, because not really sure what I'm doing wrong that causes the bend in the plate.

* For me, a drill press is essential to get all the holes in the tote lined up correctly, even then I usually end up having to adjust them a little bit with a small round file. I usually drill to preliminary depth on the drill press, and then finish with a forstner bit in a brace to get the right final depth for a flush fit with the saw nuts. In this saw, I still ended up with the bolts slightly below the surface of the tote.


Here are pictures of generations one and two. The earlier version (on top) has a 0.018" thick plate, but as you can see has a big bend in the tooth line – ughhh I hate that!
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[george wilson]

Are you asking for any critique on these?

[Mike Allen1010]

Here are some pictures of three dovetail saws I made. The one on the right is .015 inch thick plate.

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Here are some pictures of test cuts .025" plate are the 2 kerfs on the left, the next two our .018", still fairly straight even those there's a bend in the plate, and the last kerf on the right is the 0.015" plate. This saw needs a tune - up with a little more set.

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All in all, I'm satisfied with the saws as a good daily users that let me do decent work. I think I'm finally ready to part with my Bad Axe dovetail saw, but will still keep the LN .015" thick plate – that saw is sweet for small dovetails!


Lastly, while I'm still procrastinating trying to find a designed for a sideboard table that TLOML will approve (I really want to build Garrett Hacks "hunt sideboard" from FWW, but the Boss favors curvier Chippendale/French period designs. I'm okay giving the ball and claw foot a stab, but need an overall design because I have no hope of coming up with my own design that doesn't look like a monstrosity composed of three different furniture style stuck together), I have parts for two more, larger back saws.

I'm going for tote that's modeled after Groves ( pictures courtesy of Chris Vandiver). My local lumber yard just had a sale on tropical woods and here are the candidates: Claro walnut, splated Tamarind ( whatever that is), East Indian rosewood, Mexican Kingwood and something with a red color that was more affordable than pink ivory. I know none of these are traditional, but I'm thinking outside the box.

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I usually go dark wood for a crosscut saws and light wood for rip saws but may have to break the pattern here. I appreciate thoughts and suggestions for my fellow Neanders.

All the best, Mike

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Hear you about the getting the blade slot right - I tossed a couple of cherry handles I was trying after totally buggering them up cutting the slot.

Matt Cianci, in his DVD, (I watched it on the PW ShopClass site) espouses a method of using a pull saw blade, (w/o a handle, I believe, but I don't know if that matters) flat on a spacer (to get the blade to hit in the middle of the handle) placed on the bench, to help guide the cut. You get most of the way there via that method, and then carefully widen and finish the slot with an appropriate backsaw. I tried this briefly, and it seems like it would be the best method, my only issue was making sure the spacer was even and the surface I was working on was co-planer with the surface the saw was on. ( I only tried it was a quick-and-dirty experiment on scrap - both of those shouldn't be issues with care, but the did present themselves.)

If you aren't table-saw adverse, I've wonder if something like this fret-slotting table saw blade from Stew Mac would help start things. Limits the useable saw-plate sizes (although I believe I've seen similar blades from other luthier sellers with different kerf widths). Maybe if you want to get fancy, some sort of small bandsaw and a jig or something?

I just wonder at the end of the day how folks that do lots and lots of hacksaws manage this? What does TFWW, Lie Nielsen, or even someone like Wenzloff use for this? They can't be spending a whole lot of time with finicky handwork on this part of the job. . . .

[Mike Allen1010]

[QUOTE=george wilson;2290799]Are you asking for any critique on these?[/QUOTE]

Of course George, I always welcome feedback and suggestions, particularly from you.

I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert – just a guy who has built a few saws and has screwed up way more than my share .

All the best, Mike

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Mike,
Glad to see you are having better luck with the thicker plates. Looks like a Blackburns pattern or 1840s.
With respect to dovetails, the only thing a thinner dove tail plate does is give you a slightly thinner starting kerf. ( I am sure I will hear about that comment)
I don't think I would use the fret/ table saw method. Also, the problem with the common method of sliding the tote back and forth as in Matt's video is that we tend to pick up our hand a bit with out realizing it. Flipping the tote as Matt points out helps keep things centered and straight. If it is a larger saw using 0.025" or thicker plate then a well adjusted band saw and jig will work very well. Providing you have a thin kerf band saw blade. But the use of scrap test pieces is a must. Properly supporting the tote while using the band saw is equally important or it will just jerk it out of your hand ruin the blade and tear the crap out of every thing. Hopefully not your fingers. Then back to square one. ( Don't ask me how I know that. )
I will try to post something on this later. Best wishes.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I will try to post something on this later. Best wishes.

Ron - seeing as you're someone who makes a whole lot of saws, I'd love to hear more about your method, if you'd like to share . . .

Thin-kerf dovetail saws always seem irksome to me, but maybe that's because I always go in with a coping saw afterwards, and I anything that makes that harder would annoy me!

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Joshua,
I always seem to get kicked off before I finish posting anything except for the shortest post like this one. But I will try to piece together something with pics. Better the pics. than my rambling words. By the way, if you would like to see some really slick dovetails, take a look at Dave Diaman's ( Diaman Woodcrafters ) sometime. Absolutely stellar work. I always want to crawl back into my cave when I look at them. Oey Vey, The life of a hack, indeed. Best wishes.

[george wilson]

Of the 3 saws pictured together,the one on the left is the most advanced work. The cheeks have beveled sides. The curved surfaces of the grips needs to be carried all the way around behind the cheek. I don't know why you put in those 2 parallel cuts at the root of the pip,though. It would be better without them. Did you break the pip off of that handle?

Look at the way I carried the rounded shape all the way around behind the cheeks. That's how it should be done. Also,I don't make the pip so tall,and I prefer it to have rounded edges,rather than being pyramids. There are some old saws that have them angular,but rounded sides go better with the curves on the rest of the handle,keeping the whole design more harmonious.

You can emphasize crotches in the work with filed out deeper areas,but don't overdo it,and keep the edges of the filed out areas rounded. Look carefully at my handles,and you will see this.

In the picture of the crosscut saw,note how I emphasized the crotch on the bottom and top of the handle,with gracefully sweeping filed away areas. The roundness of the inside of the grip carries right around behind the cheek,and adds 3 dimensionality to the lamb's tongue. Note the rounded pips on the smaller saws. I think they go with the other curves better. Note the steeply beveled cheeks,and how the inside surfaces of the grips carries right around behind the cheek. But,it terminated right at the bottom corner of the cheek. The rounded sculpting of the closed grip varies in width from the side view,giving the effect of calligraphy,which adds to the gracefulness of the design.

I don't bring the rear end of the saw blade so far back,where it can hurt the knuckles more easily.

All in all,nice work,especially on the grips. You are capable of very accurate work. Just design details need attention.

[Don Kingston]

The wood you chose for these handles are beautiful. As for the holes for the bolts, I am sure you already thought of washes or a type of filler like cardboard under the screw head to raise it flush. Hear in Hammond Indiana is a wood supplier of African exotic wood. Some species they are sole distributor. Their many thing is custom flooring but they will sell boards. I was in the warehouse and the sizes were like railroad ties and down some vary long and some very wide. The company is Brenco, LLC. Brenco Exotic Woods Ph: 219-844-9570 www.brencollc.com website could be better but has pictures of alot of their wood and a long list of what is available.

[Kees Heiden]

I am familiar with the curved blade syndrom too. When the curve is under the handle and appears after you tighthen the bolts, then it is a mismatch in the sawslot and/or the mortise. Not much you can do about it other then making a new handle. That's why I always cut these features very early in the handle making process.

If the curve is further along the sawblade make sure first that the spine is absolutely straight (I lay a straightedge along the sawplate, just below the spine). If that isn't correct you can bend the spine a little. Further finetuning can be done by taping the spine a bit upwards or downwards though a trial and error system. Some curves can also be removed by twisting the spine. Clamp one end in the vise, and twist the other end with a pair of pliers. Of course padding the jaws of spine and pliers to prevent unsightly marks. You can twist it surprisingly far, and then it springs back. Because you look straight into the sawline, you can see very well what you are doing. All this tuning of sawblade and spine I do before installing it in the handle.

[Chris Griggs]

It is indeed darn hard to get those thin blades straight. When I made my DT saw with its .18 plate I was able to get it to seat in the back nice and straight, but even the slightest bit of misalignment in the mortise &/or kerf of the tote would put a curve in it. I think I went through 4 handles before I got one that was acceptable. It still had a tiny bit if bow to it, but it was tiny and only at the heel under the tote so I called it good.

Very challenging indeed. But worth it as I really like thin plate saws, as they seem to cut faster.

Lovely saws, BTW.

[Mike Allen1010]

[QUOTE=george wilson;2290916]Of the 3 saws pictured together,the one on the left is the most advanced work. The cheeks have beveled sides. The curved surfaces of the grips needs to be carried all the way around behind the cheek. I don't know why you put in those 2 parallel cuts at the root of the pip,though. It would be better without them. Did you break the pip off of that handle?

Look at the way I carried the rounded shape all the way around behind the cheeks. That's how it should be done. Also,I don't make the pip so tall,and I prefer it to have rounded edges,rather than being pyramids. There are some old saws that have them angular,but rounded sides go better with the curves on the rest of the handle,keeping the whole design more harmonious.

You can emphasize crotches in the work with filed out deeper areas,but don't overdo it,and keep the edges of the filed out areas rounded. Look carefully at my handles,and you will see this.

In the picture of the crosscut saw,note how I emphasized the crotch on the bottom and top of the handle,with gracefully sweeping filed away areas. The roundness of the inside of the grip carries right around behind the cheek,and adds 3 dimensionality to the lamb's tongue. Note the rounded pips on the smaller saws. I think they go with the other curves better. Note the steeply beveled cheeks,and how the inside surfaces of the grips carries right around behind the cheek. But,it terminated right at the bottom corner of the cheek. The rounded sculpting of the closed grip varies in width from the side view,giving the effect of calligraphy,which adds to the gracefulness of the design.

I don't bring the rear end of the saw blade so far back,where it can hurt the knuckles more easily.

All in all,nice work,especially on the grips. You are capable of very accurate work. Just design details need attention.[/QUOTE]


George,

I really appreciate your coaching. I think all your criticisms and suggestions are 100% on target.

Everybody has opinion/suggestions, but one of the things I particularly appreciate about you George is not only do you offer your suggestions; but you also describe the logic/rationale behind yours suggestions and even include pictures of examples that illustrate your recommendations.

As you accurately noted, design is absolutely a weakness for me. I can't draw to save my life, and am not creative. The details of executing decent joinery, planed surfaces etc. that I enjoy so much, completely escape me when it comes to the details of design. Although I can't design myself, I'd like to think I can recognize good design when I see it, or at least design that appeals to my taste. Frankly that's why I'm much more comfortable and happy copying existing designs created by someone who knows what they're doing, then trying to create something from a blank page myself.

George, you really are an excellent instructor. Anyone that has an opportunity to learn from you is truly lucky (I include myself) - I really feel like I should be paying for this education somehow. You have inspired me to redo the totes for some of my first generation, thinner plate handsaw's, with the goal of incorporating your suggestions and hopefully eliminating some of the tooth line bends in my previous efforts.

Thanks again for your contributions to this forum and taking the time to post your comments and pictures!

Kees and Ron, I also appreciate your tips for avoiding the "curved blade syndrome". Ron, I'm tempted to try the bandsaw for cutting the plate slot, but with my shop made, manually adjustable rip fence I can envision getting it adjusted to saw the slot precisely in the middle of the tote taking forever and perhaps ending up in some catastrophic bandsaw version of kickback that can't be good. If you have a suggestion for a jig to do this I would love to hear your thoughts/see pictures when ever you get a chance -Thanks!


All the best, Mike

[george wilson]

I'm afraid I have little to offer as a cure for slitting .015" saw handles. I just cut ours freehand with my old Groves .015" dovetail saw.

As someone said, it is definitely best to saw the slit early on,just after you have sawn the shape out. Waiting till it is the last thing to do on a nicely made handle,just increases the tension the craftsman already has.

Those table saw blades from Stewmac cut a .023" kerf,I believe. (I made my own). They aren't designed to cut very deep. One thing I do NOT LIKE about the Stewmac blade is,it's only hollow ground on 1 side. The side you don't see in the picture is FLAT. I make mine hollow ground on BOTH sides. I don't want the blade drifting AWAY from that flat side. It will certainly start doing that with any resin that starts to build up. There is no set in the blade to prevent it from drifting away from the flat side.

I'm not saying it won't cut fret slots,but they are only a bit over 1/8" deep at the most. If you try using the saw on your saw handle,I'd certainly cut the cut in stages,only cutting about 1/8" ,or 3/16" at a time. I can't even advise you how deep to try cutting as I do not use those blades.

I take a normal 6" plywood cutting blade and mount it against the face plate of the lathe. I hold the blade against the faceplate with the tailstock. Then,I use the toolpost grinder to gradually grind (VERY GRADUALLY!!!),the hollow grind. It takes too much time to make one of these for me to think about trying to make them for sale. I don't use coolant,and any heat can cause an instant warp,ruining everything. And,the blade is pressed against the faceplate only by friction. Press too hard,and the blade will start dishing away from the faceplate. I do both sides,which means the saw blade is very thin indeed,at the bottom of the hollow grind.

Years ago,in the 70's,Woodcraft Supply sold a similar blade for sawing veneers. The old cabinet maker had one,but I did not see if it was hollow ground on both sides. Well,that blade is long gone.

One of those cheap little bench model bandsaws might do,if you could get their little guides to work well enough. Their blades are pretty thin. If I had one,I'd reserve it for only slitting handles,keeping it set up and in fettle for that use.

[Jim Matthews]

I'm neither a saw, nor tool maker.

I find that a well sharpened saw, with a thicker plate is less likely to deform if I mishandle it.
(Not that this ever happens, mind you.)

I also find that some of the stouter handles are more comfortable.
I never understood the appeal of sharp horns and delicately carved lamb's tongues.

Those are the parts that always seem to be broken off, when I find the saw.

As to curves along the length of a plate;
if the final cut is straight and true,
what difference does it make?

It isn't as if I swing my arm in a straight line,
even when I'm trying.

Nice to see real people still making these things.

Kudos to Mike and George