Work Sharp 3000/diamond discs/establishing chisel surfaces...

[Chris Parks]

Flattening the backs on the WS for me was no issue and I read a thread here a short while ago talking about the problems some were having and wondered why. I just start it up and lay the chisel on it and get a perfect finish. I must instinctively do something that others are missing but heaven only knows what.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Flattening the backs on the WS for me was no issue and I read a thread here a short while ago talking about the problems some were having and wondered why. I just start it up and lay the chisel on it and get a perfect finish. I must instinctively do something that others are missing but heaven only knows what.

I knew it.... it is just me

I told my wife one time that I thought I had no innate talent and that everything that I encountered was based entirely on tenacity and practice. I guess that after I messed up the backs of a couple of tools I did not have the gumption to continue. Would have been easier with a mentor I think. I suppose that I messed up plenty of bevels, but, unlike the back, you can't polish up the bevel once and call it good so I was forced to practice. My blades are much sharper than they used to be. And that is why I like sharpening threads; they serve sa my mentors.

Thanks for the information...

[Chris Parks]

Andrew, there are plenty of things I find difficult to do. I too look at others and there ability to just do anything they put their mind too. I have one friend who is just a natural talent and I wonder why he is not a millionaire. Hang in there and get a bit of flat steel strap and practise if it is something you really need to do.

[Prashun Patel]

Your innate talent appears to be tenacity and practice.

[ian maybury]

+1 on the persistence Andrew. Seeming talent is often just a matter of seeing what's in front of us. Of looking carefully, making the best judgement on a first method we can, and after that improving it based on our experience.

Reinis' foot pedal sounds like a smart way to reduce the risk of problems...

One key is not to let ourselves be fazed by or hung up on anything. (society spends a lot of time teaching us to defer to seeming authority…) Quite a few if they experience a problem have a default tendency to presume its them doing something wrong (when actually the advice/recommendation was a bit off/or something in the situation is different) and keep on trying the same method - so they inevitably keep on screwing up. (what bureaucracies do all the time)

Better to trust your own judgement, and try something different/adjust the method. Good judgement and thinking stuff through then does play a part, in that it reduces the number of hard lessons/fails...

The other factor is that some may have an awful lot of related hands on experience from a very young age that feeds into a given task (from stuff like modelling, DIY, time in a machine shop or whatever), even if they are not per se a hugely experienced or regarded woodworker. A more genuine beginner may just have to sweat for a while to get to the same place….

[Chris Parks]

Spot on Ian, I couldn't have said it better myself. I wish I could explain how to do it but like a lot of things it just gets done.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I just had a meeting with a rep from the company that imports Tormek into the USA. He showed me how to flatten the back of a chisel on the Tormek. Wish I had that chat two weeks ago before I spent a bunch of time flattening the backs of six chisels on a series of stones. Took a very very long time. I even conned my 8 year old into helping me; she did a very good job on my last chisel. So, they are all very sharp at this point. I flattened the backs by hand, used a dry grinder to make things reasonable, then the Tormek to establish what I wanted, then I finished on water stones up to 16K followed by a stop (so they are very very sharp at the moment). Luckily for me, the Tormek is almost idiot proof for setting the bevel and such.

[ian maybury]

I have a Tormek Andrew, but couldn't see how to use the side to flatten a back. As in it'd be OK for a bit, but then the issue of needing to flatten and dress it comes up. Any chance of a steer?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have been using my Tormek for years for standard chisels and plane blades. I did learn a few things. He had a few tips with the parallel guide part (such as first place the chisel on the left side, make it mostly snug and then move it to the right and don't touch the left side again).

I had heard that before that you could use the side of the stone, but I had trouble laying it flat. When he flattened, he had the bar in front of the stone (rather than on the side) and he rested the side of the chisel on the bar as he simply brought the chisel back to the side of the stone. So, he simply used the side of the stone and he controlled the chisel by resting it on the bar. I am pretty sure that I never tried using the bar.

on a whim, I downloaded the latest copy of the manual from Tormek (it is on their web site), and they state the following:

The outside of the stone is machined flat and has a depressed centre so the grinding surface does not interfere with the washer and nut in the centre. This surface is reserved for flattening the back of plane irons, wood chisels and similar tools.

They have an illustration that shows the bar over the stone while flattening. The man I spoke with said that he has seen people do this by placing things flat against the stone before turning it on.

Seems that they have another figure showing the same procedure with the rest in front (page 122) . They have a section titled Flatten and Hone the Back of the Tools. They include a note in the section that states

Note Keep the tool absolutely flat against the grindstone. Otherwise the tip can cut into the wheel and be rounded off. Let the side of the tool rest on the Universal Support which should be placed close to the stone as shown. You do not need to smooth the tool more than 25–30 mm (1–1¼") from the edge.

They show it again on page 124.

[ian maybury]

Just an update. Some of the 100 and 500 grit diamond lapidary discs bought on E Bay for the WorkSharp 3000 ( by http://www.thk.hk ) arrived from Hong Kong and have had a test run - on the remaining few Japanese chisels, and on a bunch of old Marples and blue Irwins (same blades) i've had for years and which have been used for everything. (including opening paint tins)

Stuck them down on to the WorkSharp glass discs using double sided adhesive film. It works very nicely. Just take care to use a 1/2 in drill or something in the hole in the glass to guide the diamond disc into place as they need to be accurately centred.

The diamond works well. It cuts very aggressively when new, but pretty rapidly loses a lot of its bite - but seems to be holding very well at a level very similar to the equivalent 'run in' aluminium oxide disc from WorkSharp and to be lasting much better. Another positive is that it seems to put notably less heat into the metal than the AlOx paper. An 80 grit diamond disc would probably be better for flattening the backs of western chisels of this sort than the above - but work the backs up through successively finer discs (to at least 500) before shifting to the waterstones.

The Marples (which presumably are the usual commercial grade alloy steel) are a very different ball game to hone than the Japanese white steel chisels. It cuts well on the (Shapton professional) waterstones judging by the amounts of metal coming off, but feels different. Especially when flattening the (relatively much larger area/not hollowed) backs - a much greater tendency to suck down, and takes more time. It underlines just how smart the Japanese design is.

The alloy steel cuts differently to the white/carbon steel. It's a bit draggy, and the surface doesn't polish (maintains quite a dark tone) until the 12,000 grit right at the end - and even then it's not as bright. It's harder to remove scratches between grits too - probably just slower metal removal caused by the larger area. The widest chisel was really hard work, without a lot of pressure it was inclined to skid on the stone. It worked out fine, but the grade of steel and the area being worked can clearly make a very big difference to how/how well a given waterstone works.....

They do take an arm shaving sharp edge (in this case using a micro bevel), but it takes a bit more care. Soem complain of problems. One issue may (?) be that the alloy steel tends to form an obviously much thicker and larger wire edge on the coarser grits. It eventually hones off properly to leave an intact cutting edge, but for this to happen it's necessary to sneak gently up on it with controlled movements on successively finer grits (using a honing guide probably helps quite a bit too) - while resisting the temptation to tear/knock it off and probably take a chunk out of the edge. Quite how they will hold up in use is another matter.

Light dry stropping (?) on a buffing pad mounted on the WorkSharp (taking care to match the angles) definitely brings them up a little more.

Next up is to try the suggested honing on hard leather or on MDF discs (will try both) for re-sharpening….

[David Weaver]

There's not much 0.5 micron about the formax compound that lee valley and woodcraft sell.

I can't remember, but there's something like a particle limit of 3 or 6 microns for aluminum oxide in that stuff, and 70% of it is aluminum oxide. (that said, it still does provide a fine and sharp edge, and I'm convinced the al-ox is in it because woodworkers would be unsatisfied with how slow 0.5 micron chrome-ox actually cuts.

Graded chromium oxide pigment is available for cheap, though, in 0.3 and 0.5 microns, but they are way out there for most stuff you'll do day to day and you'll blast off that kind of edge fineness in a hurry. They are interesting for experimentation, though, and $10 worth will keep you stropping for a very very long time (and make everything you touch green).

Sharpening razors is definitely entirely different. The bevel on a razor is generally around 17 or 18 degrees and is fragile compared to a tool edge, and thus any significant pressure can cause microchipping on it. About the most you can infer from razor sharpening to apply to tools is that you can tease the wire edge off a little bit with light pressure and then strop whatever is left and get a good edge. Otherwise, you can be a little bit more heavy handed with your knives and chisels and favor time rather than fineness.

I'd imagine the danish oil is just, as you say, to harden the surface of the MDF and slick it. I haven't found it necessary, but I can't say it doesn't provide a benefit because I've not used such a thing on a regular basis.

I think I'd make my MDF lap 2" wide and no wider were I to do it these days, though - they could wear hollow in the middle and mildly belly your chisels. A narrow width will limit that.

There is truth, though, that particle size has overlap. Stuff like the gold compound is around 3 microns, IIRC, and suehiro and shapton make stones with finely graded particles all the way down to 1/2 micron. They are very expensive, though.

[David Weaver]

For no good reason, I just responded to a post from 7/26 by mistake, which is why that comment will make no sense.

[ian maybury]

No prob David, all good stuff. Stropping is the next sharpening technique for a try out here, although it may be a little while. Nice to be able to forget about Danish oil and stuff, to be able to just grab a piece of MDF. One of the more heighly bonded types like Valchromat would probably be more wear resistant.

The particle size overlap is definitely the interesting question regarding stropping vs. fine honing - given the fine finish and edge it produces. It may be as before that the dynamics of what goes on (free vs bound grits) makes a difference too.

The 12,000 Shapton seems to get stuff pretty damn sharp anyway....

[ian maybury]

To add a PS/qualifier to this thread which was about setting up some Matsumura chisels, and to float a question.

A set of Koyamaichi white steel paring chisels arrived from Japan over Christmas, I've just finished setting these up. Derek made a spot check of the two brands in use on WC a few years ago: http://tiny.cc/5mopsx - i've no comparative experience as yet.

It turns out that the Ks were quite a different deal to set up to the Matsumuras that were the subject of this thread. The Ms were my first exposure to Japanese chisels, and without exception were all humped or bowed away from the back to quite a degree - so that the if the rear/handle end of the back of the blade was rested on a flat surface that the cutting edge was raised by maybe 0.3 - 0.7mm above the surface - with the highest point typically 25 - 30mm (?) behind the cutting edge. This led into use of the WorkSharp/diamond set up described above (previously published by others) as there was more material to be removed than was to my mind realistic using waterstones.

The above while not in my view desirable (there's been discussion of the issue several times - some as a result advise only flattening for a shortish distance back from the edge, but this seems a forced compromise) seems to arise with some Japanese chisels - and not always consistently.

The Ks in contrast were in many cases flat enough to for the backs to clean up all over in a few minutes with a 1,000 grit waterstone. Some were a little less flat. For convenience I used the WorkSharp/diamond disc to flatten them. (it does a great job of producing a uniformly flat surface, especially the all important area right out through the edge and the corners, but in truth they could have been done on say a 120 grit waterstone with a bit more patience and elbow grease) The bevel angles were consistently ground at about 30 deg too - some of the Ms were quite a bit off in this regard. The other notable features were that the ura or hollows in the backs were quite a bit shallower and more precisly ground on the Ks, and were done after final heat treatment (were bright metal) - whereas the uras on the Ms were black suggesting they were heated again (maybe for tempered?) after grinding.

The two types handled very similarly on the waterstones. Both took a very good edge, with the outside possibility that the Ms were a hint harder.

The tendency to bow away from the hardened steel layer seems more or less universal in japanese chisels - it's normally evident as a hollow in the top of the chisel which is especially obvious where it meets the bevel. It seems likely that this is the result of the softer backing steel shrinking more than the (martensitic?) steel in the hardened/edge layer on quenching - the phenomenon that adds some of the curve to a samurai sword.

There's fairly clearly some difference in the manufacturing process between the above two makes of chisel. It may or may not have implications for the quality of the steel or the temper at the cutting edge, but for sure it makes a big difference to the amount of work required to set them up. Heavy humping may in more extreme cases make flattening of the entire back impractical by requiring removal of more of the hardened layer than is desirable.

Does anybody have any insight into the whys and wherefores of this difference?