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Thread: Paul Sellers

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    I may be a bit more thin skinned that I took offense. Chris has helped the newbie hobby side, but give me a guy like Sellers, Our own George and a host of other less vocal people that have real substance.
    I will be forever grateful to Chris Schwarz for his research into the Roubo workbench, and for his detailed, friendly and humorous way of describing how to build one. I enjoy his blog, but don't take it as gospel. I'd say he has "real substance", but don't care to get into comparing him with this or that local luminary.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    I had to look up what he's talking about. I saw sitting down like that, but not quite so awkwardly.

    It looks like someone else was taking a shot at Schwarz and he retweeted it, unless whoever was tweeting it to him said something as satire. Who knows, I'm not a twitterhead, or whatever a person reading twitter would be called.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    I may be a bit more thin skinned that I took offense. Chris has helped the newbie hobby side, but give me a guy like Sellers, Our own George and a host of other less vocal people that have real substance.
    It wasn't a simple retweet... his tweet said;

    @BadAxeToolWorks I recommend that position for the readers of Sawmill Creek. For the rest of us, teeth away from the boys.

    And he then retweeted:
    @RudeMechanic@TwoWheelNeil@BadAxeToolWorks ha! That would involve 'using' a tool and not just talking about it.

    Ultimately, not a big deal. But I can see why that would offend some.
    Last edited by Zach Dillinger; 08-01-2014 at 2:27 PM.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    He might not like that we (the more picky hacks like me on this board) put the opinions and the advice of the warrens and the georges above the advice of amateurs/publishers/bloggers, and therefore really wouldn't seek any advice from him other than where the next tool selling show might be (that'd be people other than me seeking such advice).
    I should say I'm clearly in the Weaver/Voigt camp where Sellers is concerned but I don't get too ruffled about it as I really don't care one way or the other who people choose to follow, learn from, lionize or even canonize. It amuses me these days more than it could ever irk me. I've always been a cafeteria craftsman—take a little of this or that, mix it up—weaving it into my praxis which has and will evolve.

    Yes, Sellers teaches a personal and idiosyncratic way of woodworking. I'm pretty idiosyncratic, too, but I don't push my quirks and inclinations as doctrinaire, but then I don't teach—I'd rather make stuff. So not really having any skin in the game, I just share what I do and let others try or pooh-pooh it, which fulfills and entertains me.

    Right now, I'm rather enjoying rethinking, relearning and developing new strategies and skills following my CVA. While I haven't quite got my "feel" back when sharpening freehand, it's coming back nicely and I'm revisiting jigs that I haven't picked up in years, although I'm not really relying on them as I first thought I might. Recovering at an amazing pace, I'm using this as an opportunity for innovation. Doing things only one way can certainly sharpen technique and produce consistent results but over time can be limiting, too.

    So if Sellers gets people in the shop making things, that's good. Anyone who's really serious, inquisitive and talented will overcome the constraints of a teacher's influence, whether that teacher is good or bad, and will search for and find their own way. If not, at least they'll learn one way of doing things and can happily hack away at what they enjoy or find useful.

    Some do need a hands-on up-close-and-personal mentor and a Sellers may give them the confidence they would otherwise lack. Others, like me, are confirmed autodidacts and even with good teachers feel and consider most learning as self-taught lifelong processes.

    I quite like sawing while sitting, by the way.
    Last edited by David Barnett; 08-01-2014 at 2:32 PM.
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  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Dillinger View Post


    Ultimately, not a big deal.
    Yeah, I agree, for several reasons. Not sure I'd use the word mechanic in my name were I me or Chris, though. Bit presumptuous!

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Lang View Post
    I think we're seeing some revisionist history here. At the time I learned woodworking, in the early 1970s, there were plenty of guys who knew how to use hand tools, and used them everyday on the job. Yes, in the world of hobbyists people bought into the post-WWII marketing of power tools as always better, but in the real world there wasn't any "broken chain" or need to research the old ways, guys were doing what they had been shown when they were young. Someone who apprenticed in the 1930s isn't that far removed from how things were done in the 19th century. That's the stuff that the current generation of gurus uses to give themselves credibility. Good new tools were hard to find, but there were people around who knew what they were doing. There are good reasons things have been done certain ways for centuries, and there are also usually good reasons when things are abandoned after being used for centuries. If your goal is to make nice stuff out of wood in a timely manner it isn't hard to figure out when new is better than old, or old is better than new.

    Bob Lang
    Bob, I have to disagree. To take just one example, how many people in the 70s, professional or otherwise, knew how to use a chipbreaker to control tearout on really nasty wood? Certainly not Sellers. There are other examples like that, things that were largely forgotten and have been recently rediscovered. Or maybe re-popularized is a better term, because you are certainly right that most things didn't completely disappear. But numbers matter.

    I'm not sure I get your point about the 1930s. In 1930, there was an unbelievable number of options for buying quality, mass-produced tools: Stanley, MF, Disston, etc. By say 1965, there were practically zero; the companies were either bankrupt or making garbage. Today, the pendulum has swung the other way (though it's obviously more of a boutique situation). I agree with you that the marketplace isn't perfectly reflective of what people were doing in their shops, but I think it reflects the general trend.

    I have to say, I don't have your level of experience working in top-notch shops, but I have worked in shops and on many a job site, and I can count on a hand with five fingers missing the number of guys who could flawlessly plane any board, joint by hand without a guide, and even saw to a line perfectly. And dovetails? Forget it. Hey, has anyone seen the biscuit joiner?

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    Chris has helped the newbie hobby side, but give me a guy like Sellers, Our own George and a host of other less vocal people that have real substance.
    Tony, I agree with you that Chris is quite a prolific writer, but Sellers sure gives him a run for his money! Actually, I think that's why I get prickly about him. I often check out the blog aggregators, like norse woodsmith, and so I'm seeing a LONG post by Paul almost every day. I really need to get off my butt and make my own RSS feed; I'd probably chill out then.

    If anyone cares, here's the difference between Sellers and Schwarz for me. Compare this article to this one. The difference is stark. One is dogmatic, dismissive, and presents the author as the only person who won't lie to you. The other is open-minded and tolerant, but doesn't pretend that "all ways are equally good": it just presents usable advice that can be adapted to a variety of methods.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
    … I don't get too ruffled about it as I really don't care one way or the other who people choose to follow, learn from, lionize or even canonize. It amuses me these days more than it could ever irk me. I've always been a cafeteria craftsman—take a little of this or that, mix it up—weaving it into my praxis which has and will evolve.

    Yes, Sellers teaches a personal and idiosyncratic way of woodworking. I'm pretty idiosyncratic, too, but I don't push my quirks and inclinations as doctrinaire, but then I don't teach—I'd rather make stuff. So not really having any skin in the game, I just share what I do and let others try or pooh-pooh it, which fulfills and entertains me.
    Very well said, David.
    More importantly, I'm really happy to hear you are recovering nicely!

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by David Barnett View Post
    I'm pretty idiosyncratic, too, but I don't push my quirks
    Ditto - it's sort of like the old mathematics text books that said, "i've left this part of the proof out, because you can do it yourself". People who couldn't prove the missing part got upset, but it was a good indication that mathematical theory might not be something they should get into.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Ditto - it's sort of like the old mathematics text books that said, "i've left this part of the proof out, because you can do it yourself". People who couldn't prove the missing part got upset, but it was a good indication that mathematical theory might not be something they should get into.

    I'm sorry. "Not pushing my quirks" is a tad strong, when it is followed up with a very unmistakeable view of other people.

    I take no personal offense in others being critical about Paul Sellers, Chris Schwarz or others. But I'm not at all surprised if Schwarz feels a bit pissed off about the shaft he has received from this site.

    My view is very clear. I don't subscribe to or even grasp all the stuff that Chris Schwarz teaches or preaches. But he deserves credit for being one of very few who has actually taken the time to study woodworking in a historical context. That to me is a feat which has a value of it's own and deserves respect.
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  10. #40
    I have to admit that I've never seen anything by Sellers and really don't know who he is. I took instruction in woodworking at my local community college and found it excellent. The instructors were all very good and the things they taught had been vetted through many classes and were safe practices. My own opinion is that once you have the basics, the rest is up to you. You need to build stuff and try to make each project better.

    I also agree that the thing that distinguishes a woodworker as "excellent" is the design aspect. Many, many people can learn the techniques of woodworking, but it seems that very few people can produce furniture designs that are pleasing and functional. I don't know how you can teach design, however. But what looks like a flash of creativity is usually the result of many iterations of a design, and evolution of an earlier design.

    And just a side note, I just HATE DVD instruction. I'd much rather have a book with pictures. Most of the time, I only really need to reference a part of the instruction and finding that on a DVD is usually very difficult. I get very impatient listening to the instructor go through things I already know how to do. And most of them talk way too much - blah, blah, blah.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  11. #41
    No, by not pushing my quirks, I mean if you have your bench at 35 inches, or 42, etc, I just don't care as long as you get the results you want. If you use roubo, or if you use a modern bench and taiwanese hardware, same. I just don't think that stuff is important to debate - things of such a rudimentary level do not need to be pored over when the biggest deficiency that most folks have is crappy wood and poor design. Crappy wood is OK if that's part of the design, but not if it's not.

    Even beginners should be focused on that stuff and less focused on the shopping list or "tell me exactly how to do it".

    The stories of the people doing the great work are littered with bare bones setups for their first few years (or more), despite thinking about those things in the beginning. They aren't littered with discussions of sharpening methods or bench height.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Ditto - it's sort of like the old mathematics text books that said, "i've left this part of the proof out, because you can do it yourself". People who couldn't prove the missing part got upset, but it was a good indication that mathematical theory might not be something they should get into.


    Dude, he didn't say "you can do it yourself" he said "the side lines of this book are too narrow to contain the proof", and that little sentence drove mathematicians MAD for decades, they put out a multi million dollar prize in hope that SOMEONE would keep going and solve the damn thing. it took the guy 8 years to solve it and they still don't know how Pherma originally proved it because it was solved thanks to a new modern formula by 2 Japanese guys.... I might have been about the guys ego though, because Pherma liked to toy with his british colleagues, and they always took him seriously because, well, he was a genius. I read they used to call him "that dman french guy" . sorry.

    edit: just occurred to me that you weren't talking about that
    Last edited by Matthew N. Masail; 08-01-2014 at 6:19 PM.

  13. #43
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    Kind of funny is that my most useful bench is one long & narrow, and nearly 40" high! Copied from a Pat Warner router DVD!
    If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.

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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    No, by not pushing my quirks, I mean if you have your bench at 35 inches, or 42, etc, I just don't care as long as you get the results you want. If you use roubo, or if you use a modern bench and taiwanese hardware, same. I just don't think that stuff is important to debate - things of such a rudimentary level do not need to be pored over when the biggest deficiency that most folks have is crappy wood and poor design. Crappy wood is OK if that's part of the design, but not if it's not.

    Even beginners should be focused on that stuff and less focused on the shopping list or "tell me exactly how to do it".

    The stories of the people doing the great work are littered with bare bones setups for their first few years (or more), despite thinking about those things in the beginning. They aren't littered with discussions of sharpening methods or bench height.
    I agree, and I'm guilty too, if I put half as much effort into making stuff as I do into tools, I'd be a much better woodworker, and this is where I like Sellers, because he is the first I've seen that just gets on with it, and helps you feel ok about just going at it, rather than "must be able to control my cuts within 2 microns in order to build anything". he does go into stuff that I think he shouldn't, like the bench height, that video should be named planing mechanics the leave the bench out of it, because that part is good. I imagine he feels the need to find stuff to talk about, it's much simpler than building more stuff in front of the camera.

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