Paul Sellers

[David Weaver]

If you look back through history You will find a lot of non pros that made pros look like buffoons.

No need for strawmen, it doesn't apply in this case. Plenty is known about everyone involved.

[dan sherman]

Cool down,Dan.

I'm as cool as a cucumber.

[Steve Voigt]

I don't know why such a heirarchy or dichotomy is relevant. As a rabid woodworking consumer and eager student, I get a lot out of all of it, from Garrett Hack's pictures to Chris Schwarz's articles to Paul Seller's videos to George Wilson and Zack Dillinger's no-nonsense personal advice.

I'm with Prashun. As was said in one of these other interminable threads, the term "master" seems more appropriate here than "pro"--if master is defined as someone who possesses both skill and experience in great abundance. How one pays the bills doesn't seem particularly relevant, especially with such an anachronistic skill as hand-tool woodworking.

By the way, I was under the impression that Mr. Schwarz did sell a considerable portion of his work. In any case, I would not want to make claims about his sources of income unless I had seen his tax returns first.

[Pat Barry]

Chris Schwarz is a professional writer, editor, publisher and teacher. ... Sellers, once earned a living as a professional woodworker but now is predominantly a teacher and writer (books, blog).... David Marks, by contrast, once had a popular TV show, teaches and has done a little writing but he is a professional woodworker. Garrett Hack, is another example of a professional woodworker who writes and teaches. These two groups might appear similar on the surface, but they are vastly different.

All the people mentioned here are certainly professional. I don't see how we can possibly classify any of them as less professional than any other we choose to mention. I also don't see them as being vastly different from each other. All of them have training, experience, and do training or video's or write magazine articles. How can we possibly discuss they are somehow less qualified because they are now teaching more than woodworking. Its ludicrous. This is the kind of thing that just upsets people. No wonder those mentioned don't want to be part of this site.

[David Weaver]

I think the important thing here is whether or not you think discrimination is important. :

Two definitions from merriam webster, the second one applies more so than the first...and it shouldn't be viewed with anything else other than objectivity when someone like me says that George or Warren's opinion about working wood with hand tools or making tools or reconditioning tools bears more weight than any of the bloggers, writers, etc. It's just a matter of discrimination, and not in the same way that the word is usually used now. It is not intended to injure someone else, it's intended to differentiate when the quality of one is better than another. It's not really a big deal, well the difference in quality is sort of a big deal, but the fact that one source has more depth and quality than another isn't a big emotional deal...it just is, as in it's just that way, and that's OK, and differentiating is OK.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...discrimination

: the ability to recognize the difference between things that are of good quality and those that are not
: the ability to understand that one thing is different from another thing

(of course, if you're not discriminating and the difference in quality and depth makes no difference to you, then identifying that one source is superior to the other isn't important. It's important to me. It's not important that the same thing is important to you as is important to me).

[David Weaver]

I'm with Prashun. As was said in one of these other interminable threads, the term "master" seems more appropriate here than "pro"--if master is defined as someone who possesses both skill and experience in great abundance. How one pays the bills doesn't seem particularly relevant, especially with such an anachronistic skill as hand-tool woodworking.

By the way, I was under the impression that Mr. Schwarz did sell a considerable portion of his work. In any case, I would not want to make claims about his sources of income unless I had seen his tax returns first.

I don't know what he sells, but I guess what I'm getting at is there is a group of folks who can pay the bills solely on selling their work. We're lucky enough to have a few on here. If someone wanted to pay me to build planes, that'd be one thing. It'd be entirely different for me to be able to do it and eat pay my bills - I'd have to be a lot better at it and know a lot more about doing it. Consequently, I'd give better answers if I chose to share my knowledge about it.

I could sell basic woodwork to a few of my wife's friends, but there are few things that have less appeal to me than that. I couldn't do what warren and george do, I don't know enough to at this point and the issue of not being able to may be terminal more so than it would be temporary. I am glad to yield to any of the professionals when their opinion doesn't match mine. It's likely if I learned more, I'd find out why.

[dan sherman]

I don't know what he sells, but I guess what I'm getting at is there is a group of folks who can pay the bills solely on selling their work.

I think this is the grey area. People make a living batch producing simple stuff and selling it on etsy and the like. Others are making a killing doing artistic stuff like this. http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2014/0...ia/?src=footer

I most likely wouldn't ask either group, about sharpening media, or what table saw they think I should buy.

[David Weaver]

If you had a plane you were making and you couldn't get the handle proportions to look right, who would you ask?

If you were going to build a hand plane and you were looking to set up the proportions, who would you ask?

If you were going to make a moulding on a piece of furniture and the lines weren't coming out quite right, or you didn't know how to work a curved part of it, who would you ask?

If you were going to flatten a half dozen panels and they were too big for your planer, who would you ask for advice about technique?

If you were going to finish a piece, you wanted to age it and you wanted to understand what would be colorfast and what wouldn't, who would you ask?

[dan sherman]

If you had a plane you were making and you couldn't get the handle proportions to look right, who would you ask?

I'd start with these. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=63262

If you were going to build a hand plane and you were looking to set up the proportions, who would you ask?

Depends on what type you are taking about, but I would most likely make a Krenov style plane, and thus refer to my copy of Fink's book.

If you were going to make a moulding on a piece of furniture and the lines weren't coming out quite right, or you didn't know how to work a curved part of it, who would you ask?

If it didn't look right, I'd most likely look at older works, and I have yet to run into the second issue.

If you were going to flatten a half dozen panels and they were too big for your planer, who would you ask for advice about technique?

I'm pretty well versed on the possible methods, so this question doesn't apply to me.

If you were going to finish a piece, you wanted to age it and you wanted to understand what would be colorfast and what wouldn't, who would you ask

This doesn't apply to me either, as I refuse to die or stain wood. My general stance is if you want a certain color buy a wood that color.

[Phil Stone]

If you had a plane you were making and you couldn't get the handle proportions to look right, who would you ask?

If you were going to build a hand plane and you were looking to set up the proportions, who would you ask?

If you were going to make a moulding on a piece of furniture and the lines weren't coming out quite right, or you didn't know how to work a curved part of it, who would you ask?

If you were going to flatten a half dozen panels and they were too big for your planer, who would you ask for advice about technique?

If you were going to finish a piece, you wanted to age it and you wanted to understand what would be colorfast and what wouldn't, who would you ask?

I get what you are getting at, David, but one could also ask "If you were going to build a heavy workbench, who would you ask for advice?", and come up with a very good reason to be happy when someone like Chris Schwarz showed up in these parts. I'm sorry to hear that he doesn't feel welcome here. I guess whatever precipitated that is before my relatively brief time here, so I'll try not to form any opinion about it aside from regret.

[Jim Matthews]

I think some people on this thread have been drinking to much Sawmill Creek Kool-Aid.......

That's offensive.

Comparing what goes on here to a mass murder
that included 300 children is craven, base and unwelcome.

[dan sherman]

That's offensive.

Comparing what goes on here to a mass murder
that included 300 children is craven, base and unwelcome.

It's a figure of speech, but yes it entered the English lexicon because of Jonestown.

[ian maybury]

Must say that i'm pretty much wide open to learning from all and sundry and feel that mag and similar woodworking writers fill an important role in transmitting information - at whatever level. They don't have to be placed on a pedestal (and some are all the more accessible for speaking at a level that's meaningful for many) - but lack of pretence, practicality and realism are important.

The one i really do struggle with is when woodworking writers push a particular maker's products - in any format, but especially the under the radar infommercial type stuff that mags, blogs, websites etc print despite their purporting to look out for the reader.

That's it. End of trust - because it's a fundamental conflict of interest, and because it's very unlikely that they are not in this situation at least gilding the lily.

[David Weaver]

I'd start with these. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=63262


Depends on what type you are taking about, but I would most likely make a Krenov style plane, and thus refer to my copy of Fink's book.

If it didn't look right, I'd most likely look at older works, and I have yet to run into the second issue.


I'm pretty well versed on the possible methods, so this question doesn't apply to me.


This doesn't apply to me either, as I refuse to die or stain wood. My general stance is if you want a certain color buy a wood that color.

These answers pretty well clarify things, I can guess how it would all turn out. I'd certainly rather build a coffin smoother than a krenov plane, I'd rather get design advice than try to transpose something from a non-matching piece, get advice on carving the curved moulding, match the aged piece - and do it in a colorfast way so that it would match for a long time, and i'd certainly take advice from someone who has thicknessed panels on the clock vs. calling it good enough for me and taking twice as long.

Given that none of us make stanley planes, I think I'd request assistance on the plane handle from someone who has tool building and design experience (the handle template george has provided, for example, which is exemplary in design).

[David Weaver]

I get what you are getting at, David, but one could also ask "If you were going to build a heavy workbench, who would you ask for advice?", and come up with a very good reason to be happy when someone like Chris Schwarz showed up in these parts. I'm sorry to hear that he doesn't feel welcome here. I guess whatever precipitated that is before my relatively brief time here, so I'll try not to form any opinion about it aside from regret.

I don't think he's ever contributed much here - most of the personalities don't come around much. Our beloved charlesworth stops in from time to time, though.

Anyway, I think the bitterness stems from people directing him here after he had a very awkward display of sawing on roy underhill's show. We compared it to some of the professional woodworkers on youtube (including the video of george building a spinet) and some peoples' feelings were hurt. And compared it to something like peter ross when peter is on roy's show, he puts on a display of competence that's satisfying to watch. And a bit of annoyance on my part that as I was babbling about the double iron, people were sending me PMs about how it doesn't work because Chris said so, and then after I had written an article about the double iron, I got a suggestion that I should ask chris about it because he could teach me how to use it. That started a thread that didn't end well, either. That's more a case of the fans than the teacher - each time someone new comes along, there's a huge rush of fans.

What all of this highlights, I guess, is where people like to learn from. I like to stack the odds in my favor as much as possible when getting advice, hence george, warren, or the like (or in the few cases of getting to see george working at pace in videos, watching when possible). I could've been using the double iron 6 years earlier if I'd have listened to warren instead of the bloggers and such. I could've bought fewer (and less expensive) tools, too. What gets people upset is when I say bluntly that when we have george and warren here (and george is regularly accessible), Chris doesn't add anything in terms of additional depth or accuracy. It's just the way it is. (and david barnett is one of my favorite folks to read, too, with great depth on a lot of subjects and practical experience doing them...though he's been here a relatively short time).