Paul Sellers

[Jim Matthews]

I just can't get into that kind of stuff, the sort of anti-modernity stuff that is specifically what affords average people the wealth to go spend money on his classes.

I pointed out in the class that the Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals in attendance weren't looking for validation, they're the ones that could afford it.

The whole time ignoring that the "real" types, the ones who have made a living precisely off of their work and not off of teaching students, are among us, and there are at least three on this board (two in the carving section and one here in hand tools) who do exceptional work and in quantity and of the likes that I've never seen any of the instructors do. There are a select few folks who still make a living or who made a living doing super fine work, and that's it. That's the kind of stuff you, me and everyone else are not going to figure out on our own.

I've heard this from a couple of instructors, they teach to make ends meet. I know of three NBSS grads that are what I would consider gifted and they
lament the tour schedule required to keep the classes fully attended. It's a perverse incentive, and an odd field for competition.

What I did here in Mr. Sellers' class was an undercurrent of resentment that the most prominent, and frequently quoted articles on the subject of woodworking
are written by people that never made their living by building things for sale to clients. That clearly rankled.

But, the real sense of taste, design, proportion, etc - that's where most of us really need help. I recall warren mentioning a while ago that by the time most apprentices had any technical competence, they already had a decent sense of design.

This is the essential problem I have with all the "make this project" series. Few have lasting appeal, to me - particularly the derivative stuff.

I'm much more interested in things that people make without a template; walking the wire without a net.

The whole "live edge" thing escapes me, for example.

[David Barnett]

I just don't think that stuff is important to debate - things of such a rudimentary level do not need to be pored over when the biggest deficiency that most folks have is crappy wood and poor design.

Even beginners should be focused on that stuff and less focused on the shopping list or "tell me exactly how to do it".

That resonates with me, and since you brought it up...

It also occurs to me that when I look up Tage Frid, I find an oeuvre of a recognizable and personal style and technique albeit derivative of Danish influences, even more so with James Krenov, and so on. When I look up Paul Sellers, I find occasional workmanlike pieces but not so much anything aesthetically remarkable or memorable.

Technique apart from context of design and aesthetic is valuable, exciting and enjoyable but has never to me been enough in itself. It's on the path, sure, but it's not the destination.

I personally would seek to learn first from those who've made an inspiring and significant impact on their craft. Even in the better colleges and universities, the most accomplished and recognized scientists, authors and artists often taught survey and beginner classes, and I would seek the same in any craft. Design, technical and aesthetic dimensions are too interwoven and integral to want less.

For those who haven't the advantages or drive to begin that way, I'd still think more is gained by immersing oneself in the best and most inspiring first, whether books, films or museums—the skills and technique will follow if the drive and vision are burning inside. Perhaps that seems old-fashioned but that's how I roll, what I've always wanted from my efforts. Again, that's just me. I've always endeavored to create something special and have never been satisfied or fulfilled with less.

"Ford and the world Fords with you. Rolls and you Rolls alone."

[Jim Matthews]

... I'm not a twitterhead, or whatever a person reading twitter would be called.

They're known as teenage girls, mostly.

[David Barnett]

And to think many were convinced Fermat did that only to vex generations of frustrated future mathematicians.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think stuff like bench design and sharpening are important to get up to speed on, then move forward. Given enough time you'll eventually find the minutiae of what you want in a bench or how to process your cutting edges, but that comes with experience and there truly is no substitute. It also becomes very unimportant in the day to day once the foundation is set.

[David Weaver]

I pointed out in the class that the Doctors, Lawyers and other professionals in attendance weren't looking for validation, they're the ones that could afford it.

Most folks of that ilk tend to have certainty and confidence wrapped up already. And spouses who would not tolerate a change of lifestyle.

I've heard this from a couple of instructors, they teach to make ends meet. I know of three NBSS grads that are what I would consider gifted and they
lament the tour schedule required to keep the classes fully attended. It's a perverse incentive, and an odd field for competition.

I have heard excellent things about the short courses at NBSS.

What I did here in Mr. Sellers' class was an undercurrent of resentment that the most prominent, and frequently quoted articles on the subject of woodworking
are written by people that never made their living by building things for sale to clients. That clearly rankled.

Yeah, I agree there. And I really don't have such a problem with sellers as it may appear I do. I do someone admire the gimmickry and the heat drawing, but I *am* a fan of 1980s pro wrestling where that was part of the game. I always liked that kind of stuff, and it works - they had to get people in the seats. I also note that he *does* use his tools competently and in doing so, the work looks pedestrian and routine, as opposed to always looking like being on the edge of jamming a saw or overexertion as someone like schwartz does. Some people are just ungainly, but I haven't seen too many of the true pros do anything other than make things look pretty subtle. It's good to see people working like that, it gets you to realize what you should look like when you're doing good work - subtle and paced, but consistent. Such a thing is one of the bridges that narrows the divide between dimensioning with hand tools and power tools. The only thing left that i can think of where it really gasses me to do by hand is thickness planing something large when you have the misfortune of ending up with stock that's "tweener", too thick to use and too thin to resaw without a bandsaw.

This is the essential problem I have with all the "make this project" series. Few have lasting appeal, to me - particularly the derivative stuff.

I'm much more interested in things that people make without a template; walking the wire without a net.

The whole "live edge" thing escapes me, for example.

That's quite the problem with many things - no sense in building something you wouldn't actually want. The gateway drug to building interesting furniture is a combination of turning/carving/mouldings and aside from a few classes from folks who are making moulding planes (and thus need to show where you'd use them), there is little press of that. It is something best learned at the bench, but the design sense has to be learned, and the best way I can think of to get design critique is george or warren or mr barnett, etc. I know they own their answers when they provide them, which means they have a see-saw's worth of leverage to help me make adjustments.

[David Weaver]

And to think many were convinced Fermat did that only to vex generations of frustrated future mathematicians.

I wonder what fermat's version of the proof would've looked like. I was in college at the time the modern proof was being vetted. At the time, the proof was something like 120 pages long, which seemed horribly long, but it seems less long now than it did then (I know a subsequent version is a bit more compact). Not that I'd understand any of it.

One of the things about sellers when he came out with the latest remix, and perhaps it's my irritation with internet viral things more than it is with sellers, was the immediate rush to pummel everyone on the forums with "sellers says so and he has a piece in the white house" (it appears that it's two).

I saw pictures of the pieces on his site, they are fine. He's certainly a better woodworker than me, but I'm not a professional woodworker. I sense the stuff that's in the white house is because of relationships or location of the school (in texas), but that's just my supposition. I see some of the stuff george has made and it leaves you feeling boggled, and the same for some of the vintage carvings mark yundt has blessed us with in the carving section - they are practically alive.

I'm sure I could get along with sellers, though. He's getting people to break a sweat and use their tools, and he seems like a pragmatic guy.

[Jim Koepke]

Look at all of the free advertising Paul is getting from you guys.

He has to love it.

If it is the cause of him interesting one more person in woodworking then it is all good.

Almost everyone who enters the public forum will have detractors.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

I'm information omnivorous. I try to gather as many perspectives as I can and then choose what works for me.

That is BEAUTIFUL !
That's just what I do as well.
I enjoy finding and trying all the different methods very much.
My goal isn't to get a lot of woodworking done or make an income from it.
My goal is to LEARN high end HAND TOOL woodworking.

AS FAR AS MR. SELLARS
I know almost nothing about him. I have seen his sharpening video a couple of times.
I have taught public classes for income in more than one field and I agree he does an excellent job. I enjoyed his video.
I just know for certain what works best FOR PLANE BLADES, forgetting about chisels etc., for the moment.
I come at sharpening from a "sharp, HIGH QUALITY edge first" mentality . . . before speed and then start looking at ways to speed up the process while maintaining the quality.

I think David has achieved a very high standard in that regard.

Not talking about David's method now but just all the quicker methods in general that are out there . . .
For my self I am not willing to give up some quality for a more quickly sharpened edge.
I agree it is a perfectly reasonable trade off, in most cases.

FOR A BEVEL DOWN plane blade a rounded bevel is . . .
A__M I S T A K E
PERIOD.

I isn't Mr. Sellers I have a problem with it is the whole crazy cat roundy method I KNOW is just counter productive.
Now if you are sharpening a pocket knife or a steel cutting cold chisel even a wood carving chisel THEN go to it.

I'll say it again
FOR A BEVEL DOWN plane blade a rounded bevel is . . .
A__M I S T A K E

[David Barnett]

I saw pictures of the pieces on his site, they are fine. He's certainly a better woodworker than me, but I'm not a professional woodworker.

That's my take. It's appropriate to the setting and looks to be well made. It doesn't do anything for me beyond that, however, but that's about taste—mine, that is.

I've seen competently made pieces in homes and public spaces that move me—most don't—but that's about personal taste and preference rather than quality of construction. I've been inspired and moved by work that falls short of technical excellence, as well. I don't care for most period pieces, especially reproductions, even though they may be consummately realized.

Please deliver me from ornately wrought decorative elements and Byzantine or Baroque complexities! As pants the hart for cooling streams so my soul longs for clean lines and quiet spaces.

I see some of the stuff george has made and it leaves you feeling boggled, and the same for some of the vintage carvings mark yundt has blessed us with in the carving section - they are practically alive.

I can easily appreciate and revere craftsmanship apart from my preferences and needs as I can appreciate design apart from the best craftsmanship. When both come together, though, it can stir one to the core. It's all so personal.

If Seller's craft satisfies another, I have no quarrel, and if his ways of making things, his views on modernity. lifestyle and approach to business impresses and appeals to another, so be it. That said, as long as I can express my preferences, opinions and criticisms without ire or reprisal beyond reasoned if energetic argument, I'm entirely content. No cause to get all exercised over differences in taste, technique or opinion. No-one gets hurt until the dogma bites.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't subscribe to or even grasp all the stuff that Chris Schwarz teaches or preaches. But he deserves credit for being one of very few who has actually taken the time to study woodworking in a historical context. That to me is a feat which has a value of it's own and deserves respect.

Very good point.

Mr. Schwarz is like many of us, on a journey of exploration. He just leaves bigger tracks.

Some of his achievements are worth all the cheers and accolades. Some may come up missing anything to interest readers.

jtk

[David Barnett]

It occurs to me we're perhaps talking about two different things, or maybe classes of attainment—one, where someone wants to get the basics and flavor of woodworking, to learn to make something that will give pleasure and pride or at least doesn't get hid in a dark corner and to improve on this as time goes on, and the other, where it's desired to approach, realize or transcend some creative and artistic threshold. One needn't move beyond the ordinary or mundane to find artistic fulfillment, though. Charles Rennie Mackintosh endeavored to express what he saw as the "sacredness of everyday life". So depending on one's expectations and goals, the personal benchmark should probably be just how well one attains and derives satisfaction in the creative process in making things, if not the outcome.

I dunno. I should probably go to bed.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hill House chair and the Argyle chair are very incredible everyday objects. I appreciate his goal, being that everyday objects are the interface of everyday life. I enjoying living amongst craftsman built objects. Taking a moment when using an everyday object to contemplate the creative process, consideration for the user, skill and execution of processes is something I find great enjoyment in.

[Simon MacGowen]

Paul Sellers is a very good teacher, better than anyone who cares to spend their time sharing their comments here. His approach may not please everyone nor may his style. I see no gimmicks from him, just his ways of presentation which we may or not may accept. What I really like about his videos (some of his recent blog posts suck) is that they are easy to understand and most, if not all, are free of unnecessary fillers. His sharpening method has allowed many people to start sharpening free hand, something no other woodworkers before him, including Rob Cosman, have succeeded.

Since not every woodworker likes him, he must be doing something right. I consider his free Masterclass episodes a community service.

Simon

[Kim Malmberg]

Paul Sellers is a very good teacher, better than anyone who cares to spend their time sharing their comments here. His approach may not please everyone nor may his style. I see no gimmicks from him, just his ways of presentation which we may or not may accept. What I really like about his videos (some of his recent blog posts suck) is that they are easy to understand and most, if not all, are free of unnecessary fillers. His sharpening method has allowed many people to start sharpening free hand, something no other woodworkers before him, including Rob Cosman, have succeeded.

Since not every woodworker likes him, he must be doing something right. I consider his free Masterclass episodes a community service.

Simon

Spot on, Simon. I fully agree.