It does. Thanks. Your previous statement: "This weekend, I worked with a flat and hollow (convex) grind" is where any confusion arose. I think you simply misspoke.Originally Posted by Daniel Rode
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It does. Thanks. Your previous statement: "This weekend, I worked with a flat and hollow (convex) grind" is where any confusion arose. I think you simply misspoke.
διαίρει καὶ βασίλευε
[OP]
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I didn't notice the typo. Thanks!
-- Dan Rode
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." - Aristotle
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Gee. I am really disappointed.
First off for chisels, other than maybe the pry bar mortis, it doesn't matter much convex, flat even some stropping. What ever.
I was hoping there was going to be a head to head of identical planes with identical blades, say two LN #4s.
that's what I used (among a few others over time).
Try both roundy and flat secondary bevels (you can even round over the primary on both if that really turns your crank.
Start with something easy like an eight foot by ten inch plank of oak and plane it for flat and smooth with zero tear out and zero chatter marks until the blade begins to chatter and then soon after skate and skip. Stop planing, do not advance the blade, and take note of how much work was achieved.
after both blades on that oak . .
Resharpen
oh before I get too far ahead of my self lets define sharp : both blades must shave at least one micro curl off one of the hairs on your arm with both sides of the blade ( yah well . . . good luck doing that with Mr. Roundy but I bet you can convince your self you saw it happen ) . . .
So next we move on to a nice big slab of highly figured walnut you know crotch stuff.
Do the same planing until failure as above. Note how much fun you had there with both blades.
OK now you are warmed up.
Resharpen both (no cheating) one of the blades gets the flat secondary using the sharpening jig and to at least 6000; preferably 8000.
Pull out a plank of purple heart, or if you are feeling brave an eight footer by ten of bubinga.
Oh so now you are saying there is no reason to do that. You don't use that ugly heavy old stuff any way so why bother?
Why in deed . . . If you have great edges you WILL be able to plane it.
And if you don't have an excellent edge . . .
well . . .
this is going to demonstrate that fact. (why not always have an excellent edge ? You will always get more work done per sharpening than with a slap dash).
The acid test.
So . . . go on . . . lets see another thread . . .
Bevel down PLANE blade convex secondary vs flat jig sharpened secondary . . . for the whole face of the planks . . .till failure
Oh yah baby.
Last edited by Winton Applegate; 08-05-2014 at 1:27 AM.
Sharpening is Facetating.Good enough is good enoughButBetter is Better.
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Yo Winton: I gots me a huge issue! I finished a changing table for my second grandson and I may very well have to reclaim it and redo the top! The problem? I don't think I sharpened my plane iron correctly. Ya, the top looks really nice, and in fact looks dayam nice. But I cannot state emphatically what the bevel looked like, nor can I tell you what degree the angle was. Concave? Convex? Flat? Even worse, I gots me the same questions about the stone I used!
Advice would be greatly appreciated, and in the mean time, I got me a grandson that has been holding back what will eventually become a huge explosion.
If the thunder don't get you, the lightning will.
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I think I could plane the bubinga and the purpleheart just fine using a washita stone, though cutting across their endgrain would be a pain in the butt without going a little finer.
I'd be using a double iron, though. What I used to think was nasty planing (cocobolo with a basic stanley or millers falls plane) is tamed pretty easily once the cap iron is set properly, and it can be planed with an iron that is fairly dull compared to what a fresh super hard japanese iron would be off of something like a 1 micron stone. Though dull, still able to shave hair and still with good geometry.
I have a stone that I think you'd be nutty over, but I can't remember what your last stone is. Do you use the shapton 30k as a final step?
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It's hard not to think that (as David mentioned) no matter how free and easy the whole round bevel deal appears (and on first sharpening cutting performance will not be much influenced by reasonable variations in bevel angles) that re-sharpening absolutely requires either reproducing precisely the same honing bevel angle as first time around (the ideal), or one that is a tiny shade steeper in order to get right to the cutting edge without needing to remove an inordinate amount of metal. (which latter angle if precisely controlled should be fine for several reshapenings as with a micro bevel, but it must eventually lead to a pogressive steepening or increased humping of the bevel)
i.e. the rub is perhaps that no more than any other sharpening method it doesn't actually deliver any escape from the requirement to precisely hold the angle of the honing bevel. It's perhaps more demanding in this regard than some other methods - presuming that re-sharpening is as with most other methods a matter of lightly touching up just the cutting edge, and not of re-working the entire bevel. This because a humped bevel would lift the cutting edge free of the stone or strop if the honing angle was reduced even slightly - and force the removal of much more metal to get back to a wire edge. Also because there is no clearly defined reference plane to work from.
Another caution may relate to the high sharpening pressures applied to the chisels in the video. It presumably brings the benefit of rapid metal removal when required (as before i'd no idea that stropping for example could remove so much - and it's perhaps the re-working of most of the bevel at almost every sharpening that is the antidote to the above issue), but without high skill levels it seems likely that a moment's inattention could do quite a lot of harm to a finely formed edge...
Last edited by ian maybury; 08-05-2014 at 10:24 AM.
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I think most people will lift an iron to cheat and finish an edge, but the method would work fine as long as you get a feel for about where you want the steepness to stop (in a plane iron for me that'd be no steeper than 35 no matter what, and probably 30 in a chisel) and train yourself to go back to a coarser stone if you can't finish an iron or chisel without lifting the edge more.
Human nature is going to cause a lot of people who know they can lift another 5 degrees to do that to finish an edge in a couple of strokes - because going to a coarser stone and then back to the fine again will take a lot more time.
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I enjoy tests such as this.... And that, my friends, is why I want to party with Winton! (and because he has those cool pieces of wood on which to perform the tests).
Member
David,I think I could plane the bubinga and the purpleheart just fine using a washita stone
I was thinking of you (in a positive way) when I wrote my post that you quoted . I originally wrote : buss out the high angle frog for the purp. and bub. but then I deleted it.
You have got everybody here up to speed (except me)(maybe I will try it some day) . . . setting the cap nose/bevel angle and the cap to edge so you don’t need the high angle frog or a back bevel.
AND of course you sharpen right,
(I was going to say that I agree with what all you wrote earlier in this thread)
no big roundy, so of couarse I know you could plane it. I can’t prevent my self from typing : you MIGHT get a touch of chatter because of the bevel down vs my bevel up.
It’s them soft cheep strops (Sellers) and the massive rounding that scares me.
Well I’m a bit nutty with out that but . ..Nutty
Yes your new 20,000 sounds fun for the razors.
No I haven’t “pulled the trigger” on the 30,000. Maybe for Christmas.
The Shapton glass 30,000 I have not removed from my Amazon shopping cart list and it occasionally drops to a “mere” $230 or so. I will probably get a Pro from Stu
Right now when I sharpen “normally” I use the Shapton 8,000 Pro but when I am out of my head and abandoning all sense of rationality I go and use the Shapton 15,000 for no other reason than : I can.
Last edited by Winton Applegate; 08-06-2014 at 12:42 AM.
Sharpening is Facetating.Good enough is good enoughButBetter is Better.
Member
I had the large purple heart to make my work bench. I won't be using eight foot purp. for much else.cool pieces of wood on which to perform the tests
Purp is what got me started down the road to madness though.
First off purple heart is cheep and plentiful. Bubinga is a whole other story. Not cheep and not plentiful at least not the really pretty stuff and I am not even talking water fall etc.
Way back when I bought a little stick of purp. and just fooling around I took my new LN #4 to it. Hand sharpened and latter tried again resharpened and stropped.
I tried every which away and I ALWAYS got some chipping. Tear out. Soon after I got chatter as the blade dulled.
This was a little plank like four or five inches wide and a foot and a half long. Plane Jane absolutely no figure to it or rowed grain. Just purple tame looking wood.
Chip, chip, chip.
sharpen, test, chip, sharpen, test, chip, sharpen, test, chip,
Finally I WON !
I used a sharpening jig (the older Varitas) that made a HUGE difference !
and I still had to back bevel the blade to gain mastery over purple heart and be totally tear out free.
It sure seems like I tried every which a way with the chip breaker from right on the edge to way back out of the way.
With the back bevel . . . I found keeping the chip breaker way back out of the way was just fine.
I gave up on chip breakers that day and still find them pointless (as long as I have my steep bedded woodies or my bevel up planes.
I hate making back bevels on bevel down plane blades. That was why I went looking for something better and first found bevel up and THEN steep beds (thank you Larry Williams).
Last edited by Winton Applegate; 08-06-2014 at 1:30 AM.
Sharpening is Facetating.Good enough is good enoughButBetter is Better.
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I like the 15k pro. If I were still using stones of that type, I'd use a 1k and 15k and that'd be it, but you know how little metal I like to work.
Far as the washita would go, it would work fine for smoothing, and wouldn't chatter with stock iron and cap iron on bubinga, but the heavier cuts like fore plane type cuts would probably chatter a little bit - gives you just a bit of a zzzzzzzzzzzipppp feeling when you use them, and i can't tell any difference in tearout when that occurs because the chatters are close together.
If the cut wasn't started properly, though, someone could get some skipping from the plane until it engages in the cut.
The biggest difference with washita sharpness and something like shapton 15k pro sharpness is what the very thin shavings look like on more compliant wood. On the ceramics, those very thin shavings are very waxy and they stay together a little better. I suppose the practical limit of thin-ness (.3 thousandth or something in a wood like cherry) is pretty easily obtained with those stones, and a washita won't go down to that and have a shaving that easily stays together - it probably won't go down to it at all - you'd never be able to tell if you could because the shaving is no longer an organized shaving. The harder the wood, the bigger the difference on those thin shavings.
Far as the fine stones go, the gok is at least as fine as the shapton 30k (which I have used, I still haven't used the gok, but the razor folks have discarded the 30k in favor of the gok), and it costs about the same as the glasstone, but you get several multiples more abrasive. I noticed very little between the 30k shapton glass and the 16k shapton glass (a friend bought the entire range, including the 30k, mostly because "it was there").
Last edited by David Weaver; 08-06-2014 at 9:42 AM.
Contributor
Though I have no way to document this I think there are two different types of zzzzzzzzzippp that can occur. One is with a lighter cut and the sound is produced by the chip breaking against the chip breaker. The second is actually chatter and there are visible 'zipper marks' on the surface.fore plane type cuts would probably chatter a little bit - gives you just a bit of a zzzzzzzzzzzipppp feeling when you use them, and i can't tell any difference in tearout when that occurs because the chatters are close together.
Just my
two cents.jpg
YMMV!!!.jpg
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
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Yeah, I'm talking about the second zip that leaves a surface with what looks like tiny ribs.
Contributor
Although I don't think that it was your intent, there is a lot of good information in that post!
Member
Disclamer : you guys know I have to do this at least once a week or I don't feel my self (I mean don't feel like my self) you won't take it to heart but those new here may think I am being bad.
I just enjoy the humor in it all.
Ha, hadifferent zzzzzzzzzzps
Being way over here, on the other side of the fence, and up here in the cheep seats (though some how I spent a whole lot of money on a whole lot of different planes, jigs, stones, books, wood AND a whole lot of TIME , to get this seat) . . .
I must say that TO ME discussing different zzzzzps is vaguely like two auto mechanics discussing the different QUALITYs (timbre, pitch, volume) of automobile engine back firing and agreeing that one or another is to be expected.
The important thing is that the car get you where you are going.
Right ?
he, he, he, he
Once a BU snob always a BU snob . . . except David. He has repented his temporary albeit legendarily lusty visit to the evil boudoir of the BU and returned . . . teaching those who have ears to hear (oh wait skip that bit) and eyes to see that the true calling of a man (women aren’t going to buy this) . . . anyway . . .that the true calling of a man lies not in enjoying the pleasure of the smooth and sensuous planing experience; lies not in the peace in quiet work . . . those are the temptings of the devil and must be ignored as booty traps that lure the weak and undisciplined.
The One True Way (who was it that said "Capital letters were always the best way of deal with things you didn't have a good answer to." . . .
The One True Way lies not in this lustrous, luring, quiet but in grappling with the ineffable chip breaker to see if once and for all if we may not, TODAY, eff it after all.
You are a man who is truly devout to his faith. Unshakable no matter the blusterous tempests and TREMORS that surround you.
he, he, he, he
Last edited by Winton Applegate; 08-07-2014 at 4:49 PM.
Sharpening is Facetating.Good enough is good enoughButBetter is Better.
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