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Thread: Bill Pentz cyclone build.

  1. #46
    Alan, even though you advocate the time delay photo electric sensor, I personally do not think they are as good as a manual style time delay with instant PES. A manual style time delay you can adjust it from one second upwards 180 seconds. The reason why I am putting two timers in my system is one timer will be set to 15 seconds and this will trip a strobe light in the shop. The second one I will set at one minute + and this one will shut down the contactor. False alarms can be identified safely without losing suction. This is why I decided to go with lit semitransparent drum for quick reference. If there is a false alarm the strobe light would warn you and then you can ease up on the planer with sufficient time before a complete shutdown.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    Alan, even though you advocate the time delay photo electric sensor, I personally do not think they are as good as a manual style time delay with instant PES. A manual style time delay you can adjust it from one second upwards 180 seconds. The reason why I am putting two timers in my system is one timer will be set to 15 seconds and this will trip a strobe light in the shop. The second one I will set at one minute + and this one will shut down the contactor. False alarms can be identified safely without losing suction. This is why I decided to go with lit semitransparent drum for quick reference. If there is a false alarm the strobe light would warn you and then you can ease up on the planer with sufficient time before a complete shutdown.
    I do not advocate a time delay for my simple day/night sensor system, just the opposite.

    I stopped using that system a few years ago and am now using a purpose-built LED system with selectable time delay, selectable flash pattern, and multiple switched outputs. It was built by my brother. I found the time delay unnecessary and set it to zero. I have never had a false alarm from either system in over 10 years of use. (neither system failed to alarm in a high dust condition)

    The easiest way to prevent overflow is not with a delay, since it will depend on the amount of dust being generated, but by careful placement of the sensor- leave yourself some room to spare. That extra space makes it easier to empty the drum.

    Without good sensor placement, a "shut-down" delay that is too long could result in an overflow and dust getting into the filter(s).

    Likewise, if you miss the strobe signal or can't stop planing a 10' long board soon enough, too short of a "shut-down" delay could also result in dust getting into the filter(s) because of air velocity. You should never generate or continue generating even the slightest amount of dust while the DC is spooling up or winding down. From very low to less than maximum air velocity, separation in the cyclone will go from almost nothing to less than optimal, and will result in dust flowing into the filter(s). The best solution if you have a system that automatically shuts down the DC is to have a master auto-gate on the cyclone inlet or auto-gate(s) throughout your system that close when there is a high dust condition in your bin.

    The solenoid air valves that port air to my auto-gate cylinders are powered "open," so once power is cut to or from the auto-gate transformer, all gates close instantly and air flow stops instantly everywhere in the system, including inside the cyclone. Since no air can enter the cyclone, dust can't flow into the filter(s). Any dust trapped in the ducting is easily purged when the system is restarted and blast gates opened. Just something to think about.
    Last edited by Alan Schaffter; 08-19-2014 at 12:54 AM.

  3. #48
    Alan , it sounds like you have something to aspire to. If you ever get time a YouTube walk around would be the second best thing to witnessing it myself in your shop. To me it sounds like you've taken some extra precautions over and above most and have created a somewhat a state-of-the-art DC system. I have to say, it is a pleasure and an honor when somebody like you takes the time to do a rundown of a system or practice that you have implemented and share it with others (In forums like this). Thank you for sharing any of your knowledge. Trust me, it will not go to waste.

  4. #49
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    Matt, a rather long winded video/slide show of my setup is still up on the American Woodworker website at this link. Since AWW has closed, who knows how much longer it will be there? Also, unfortunately, when they migrated servers a few years ago, the last half of the video which shows everything in operation, got lopped off! (it was originally 13+ min. long!) If I ever find the original video or get bored enough to re-shoot, I'll post it somewhere.

  5. #50
    This is an absolutely incredible build. I can't wait to see it finished. Are you going to paint it or anything or leave it in the raw stainless?

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    Here is the fan. The shrouds/blades are made of .042 " SS. The paddle fan blower are 5 inches tall by 17 1/4 inches diameter the intake shrouds are 1 1/4 inches tall on the 45° angle 8 inches in diameter. I made up a little wood jig and bent each blade equally with the negative rake and TIG welded them together and to the back plate.

    Next is building the blower housing.
    Impressive, nicely reported, thanks


    1. How did you decide on the curvature of the large blades?
    2. I missed the reasoning (add a second stage?) on the blade extensions - and how you curved them.
    Doug, the "Wood Loon"
    Acton, MA

    72, slow road cyclist, woodworking dabbler, tool junkie , and
    bonsai enthusiast.
    Now, if I could just stay focused longer than a few weeks...

  7. #52
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    Now I'll tell you how to save $112 on truck filters. Go to a truck repair shop & ask for 2 of their used filters & using compressed air blow them out. They are free & blow out just fine & work well too.

    Another thought is a dust drawer on the bottom of your filter set up. I saw this on another system. Makes it easier to dump the small amount of fine dust if need be.

    http://www.ablett.jp/workshop_archive/cyclone3.htm
    Last edited by Bart Leetch; 09-11-2014 at 8:51 PM.
    I usually find it much easier to be wrong once in while than to try to be perfect.

    My web page has a pop up. It is a free site, just close the pop up on the right side of the screen

  8. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Bart Leetch View Post
    Now I'll tell you how to save $112 on truck filters. Go to a truck repair shop & ask for 2 of their used filters & using compressed air blow them out. They are free & blow out just fine & work well too.

    Another thought is a dust drawer on the bottom of your filter set up. I saw this on another system. Makes it easier to dump the small amount of fine dust if need be.
    As to going to the truck repair garage and asking for old filters, I did do this. They had about 10 of them outback. None of them the same, and none of them very clean. My shop is in the basement of my home. Most of the old filters smell like diesel fuel and exhaust fumes. I did not prefer to have that exchange of air. I was as well looking for replace ability.


    As for the dust drawer for cleanout of the filters, that is for exhausting the filters from inside and out. My design is from outside in. With the filter box that I designed and displayed it would make it very difficult for some kind of drawer.

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Hobkirk View Post
    Impressive, nicely reported, thanks


    1. How did you decide on the curvature of the large blades?
    2. I missed the reasoning (add a second stage?) on the blade extensions - and how you curved them.
    The diameter of the housing would permit a total of a 18 inch diameter blade with zero clearance at the tightest spot. I opted for 3/8 clearance. This housing was designed for a 16 inch standard diameter fan with a 1 inch clearance. I knew that I could adjust the intake diameter to compensate for over amperage of the motor. Since I was using very thin metal, the backplate added integrity but integrity was lost from the intake. I had two choices 1, add preliminary stage fan or, 2, shape the primary fan with a hook at the top to add integrity. Since I originally designed it to be an 18 inch blade and through my research found that a negative rake would reduce sound, my clearance expectations and wanting to add integrity to the blades the arc was designed to start bending at 4 1/4 inches from center and squeeze the extra blade within a 8 5/8 radius. Made up a 4.5" arc form to shape the tips. Then I tack welded them to the back plate. I think this answers both your questions.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by eric burns View Post
    This is an absolutely incredible build. I can't wait to see it finished. Are you going to paint it or anything or leave it in the raw stainless?
    It is going to get left in raw stainless. I like that look. I am now presently in the midst of designing circuitry for each and every, a momentary pushbutton to control the on and off of the system. I'm on my third test of different flip-flops circuitry systems. The last one I have come up with is pretty decent but I am only 95% happy with it. My long-term goal is to have a pushbutton at each intake as I hate listening to a DC system of any sort, but I want to be able to have potentially six buttons around the shop that all have an indicator light and would be able to turn them off from any station no matter what station it was started at.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Mattingley View Post
    It is going to get left in raw stainless. I like that look. I am now presently in the midst of designing circuitry for each and every, a momentary pushbutton to control the on and off of the system. I'm on my third test of different flip-flops circuitry systems. The last one I have come up with is pretty decent but I am only 95% happy with it. My long-term goal is to have a pushbutton at each intake as I hate listening to a DC system of any sort, but I want to be able to have potentially six buttons around the shop that all have an indicator light and would be able to turn them off from any station no matter what station it was started at.
    Unless you will eventually add other functionality (individually adjustable delays, etc.), I really don't see the need for flip-flop, Arduino or other special circuitry- a simple low voltage (24V), 3 wire circuit, and a latching power relay with low voltage coil, will let you do what you want- turn the DC on and off from any location.

    I did that with my first manual DC control- I have 5 - 6 control stations around the shop. I left that system in place after I converted to machine-triggered auto-gates, so I can continue to manually turn the DC on or off if I'm not using a machine, e.g. using the DC as a vac, cleaning my filters, etc.

    I was lucky to find nice looking, inexpensive, Delta "START/STOP" buttons (cover and buttons only, no switch assembly) on Ebay. Mini NO/NC momentary switch assemblies which I mounted behind the buttons provide the contacts. I figured I would hear it and there would be no problem determining whether the DC was on or off, so I didn't add lights, but it would have been easy to do so. When I converted my blast gates to (electro-pneumatic) auto-gates I decided to include manual control of those, but added lights to tell me which gate(s) were open. I mounted push-on/push-off (open/close) buttons and lights to standard outlet box blank-outs for semi-automatic control of each gate. I saw no reason to home-run those functions.

    Manual DC control stations:






    Semi-automatic blast gate control station:



    3-wire DC control circuit (with simple high dust alarm DC cut-off)


  12. #57
    Alan, you never cease to impress me. I do like your wiring schematic. I got a question for you though. What do you think of impulse relays?

  13. #58
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    An impulse relay would accomplish the same thing as a three wire setup like mine. It would allow you to eliminate one wire (unless you want to have a status light) and one button at each station. I really haven't thought about it much, but I am not sure an impulse relay would guarantee the same degree of failsafe since it needs power to change state. I suppose it would be OK if it is powered from the same source as the DC contactor coil.

    Actually, the circuit that I use to auto start the DC when any gate is opened, is similar. My autogates use current sensor switches, so any time a machine is running (or a gate semi-automatically opened with a button) the pneumatic solenoid is powered open and air flows to open its gate. In my original setup, a set of contacts in the DC control circuit also closed any time a gate was opened. However, I wanted to be able to manually shut the DC off while a machine is running. My brother built me a little circuit that essentially does the same thing as an impulse relay. When a gate is opened the circuit senses the power demand on the gate circuit power transformer and sends a momentary 1 sec. pulse to close the latching relay in the DC control circuit. After 1 sec. the contacts open so that the latching circuit can be broken (DC stopped) by depressing any manual stop button around my shop. The circuit has the option for a delay-on-off as well, but I don't use it.

    Remember during woodworking, you don't want dusty air flowing into the cyclone as it powers down. That will result in poor separation of the last amounts of dust, so you must build in a delay to keep the DC running until the duct is purged or close a blast gate so no air can flow.
    Last edited by Alan Schaffter; 09-16-2014 at 12:51 AM.

  14. #59
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    Another vote for IMPRESSIVE!

    Regards, Marty
    "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity" - anon

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Gulseth View Post
    Another vote for IMPRESSIVE!

    Regards, Marty
    Thanks Marty. Is actually kind of cool that people let me know when or if they like this kind of thread. I hate documenting stuff if it falls on deaf ears.

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