Question for experienced turners

[Scott Brandstetter]

I've been turning for less than a year and my skills are improving and I'm obsessed with the entire process. I have run into something I can't seem to solve. When I turn a bowl I can't seem to get the end grain smooth. I went to my Woodcraft store and talked with a couple of turners and they gave me a couple suggestions. I wanted to see if you agree.

Make sure the tools are extremely sharp. Obviously, I agree with this
Use a "scraper" for the final turn
Turn at the highest speed possible
Sand Sand Sand

I would appreciate any thoughts.

[Dale Winburn]

That's the way I do it! Some woods are more prone to end grain tear-out that others. I've been turning a sugar maple box this morning, takes a lot of sanding to get the end grain smooth.

[kevin nee]

Try putting a bit of the finish that you will be using on the problem
areas before sharpening for the final cut. Good luck!

[Thom Sturgill]

I would agree with a few caveats - Scraper for the inside held so as to 'shear scrape'. I burnish my scrapers. Shear cut on the outside with the wing of the bowl gouge. A scraper CAN be used for this, most probably do not.

[Nicolas Silva]

If you get a chance to see the turning videos from John Jordan I would recommend it. Like John, I rarely use a scraper. I use a hollow bowl gouge ground with a finger nail grind both for spindle and bowl turning. Like Thom indicates,
you hold the tool to get a share scrape (almost upside down in this case) which gives some a mighty fine surface. Shouldn't require a lot of sanding.
On the inside of the bowl, that same grind gives a nice finish except in this case it is the front of the gouge not the sides. You almost have to see it to get the feel for it.
Look for the video at your local woodturning club or online for sale. Cheers!

[Reed Gray]

Well, all of us are different, and some are more different than the others. Some woods will tear more than others, just the nature of the wood. For the cleanest cuts, a high shear angle works best. A scraper flat on the tool rest has zero shear angle, most gouges will get you to 45 degrees or so, with a fluteless gouge from Doug Thompson, you can go to 70 or more degrees. One note here, NEVER use a scraper flat on the tool rest on the inside of a bowl any where near the rim once most of it has been hollowed out. "There was this loud screeching and howling noise, and then my bowl blew up!" Some times wetting the wood helps with tear out. I use water, but you can use oil, and then take very light cuts to remove the wet wood. A couple of passes. High speed does help, but is not really necessary, especially if it makes you nervous. I prefer a shear scrape, with scrapers to remove tool marks. I don't burnish a burr. I have found the burr from the CBN wheels to be great. I do have several clips up on You Tube if you type in robo hippy.

robo hippy

[Thomas Canfield]

You do not say what size or shape bowls you are doing. For deeper bowls or sharp corners, you may need to use a different grind to do the lower section an bottom. A curved tool rest to help reduce the amount of overhang (unsupported length of tool) will also help give better control. I am probably the oddball, but I do not usually use a scraper on cross grain turnings. Otherwise, I agree with your original list. Some softer woods may also require use of a hardner on the end grain sections to get a good finish.

[robert baccus]

I reserve scrapers for very hard woods--softer, normal woods, for a final finish cut I use a 3/8"Thompson. It gets sharpened and diamond honed and I cut top to bottom point first keeping a 1/8" ledge all the way. A lot of it depends on the species and water content. Try and find a method that cuts clean before you need to. Always keep a supply of 40/80/100 grit handy.

[Dale Gillaspy]

All of the above it good advice. you might also try putting a little shellac on the end grain before you make the final cut. If the fibers lay over, they will tend to tear instead of cut, leaving a very rough finish. The shellac will give them a little strength to stand up.

[Robert Henrickson]

All of the above it good advice. you might also try putting a little shellac on the end grain before you make the final cut. If the fibers lay over, they will tend to tear instead of cut, leaving a very rough finish. The shellac will give them a little strength to stand up.

Or use diluted lacquer

[Prashun Patel]

I have been struggling with this issue for a couple years too. Here's what I have found out recently:

Most of my tear out is a result of the heavy, hollowing or roughing cuts. This tear out is relatively deep; that is, even the sharpest edge and the deftest finishing stroke will have a hard time removing it (it's like expecting your 220g paper to remove the scratches from yr 60); it can be done, it just takes many, many passes. Taking too many 'smoothing' passes tends to alter the profile and create flats for me.

Rather, I've found that I get better results by breaking my turning up into three parts: roughing cuts, *medium leveling cuts*, then final finishing cuts (all with the same bowl gouge). The medium leveling cuts are taken with a touch slightly more aggressive than the finishing ones, but with a cutting - not shear scraping - approach. The goal here is blending and removing the tool marks, but the motion is the same as the roughing cuts, just gentler. Extra time spent here means I only need a final two or three barely-there finishing cuts.

Perhaps this is obvious for many people, but for me, it was a revelation to realize that there is not a digital step between roughing and finishing cuts, but rather a gradual transition to lighter cuts as you near - but before you reach - completion of the finished form.

Contrary to the advice you've received, I think the smoothest results on finishing cuts are achieved at lower speeds. Turning at very high speeds - especially when things are thin, gives me chatter. A slow speed allows the tool to follow the form better; it also gives me a little more confidence to open the gouge to a sheer scrape; something that can give me the willies at high speeds. Of course, finishing at slow speeds also means you have to be slow and smooth with your flow - but that technique is straightforward and worthwhile to develop imho.

[Peter Fabricius]

Hi Scott,
I was sitting here reading your post and the responses.... Thinking that we are all different and then I get to Robo Hippy and he said what I am thinking, we really are different and that is mostly a good thing!
Our Woodturning guild demonstrated at a local wood show this past weekend and I had an opportunity to do a little demo stuff (the TimYoder Snowmen and a couple of square 5" bowls with demo undercut points). It was a fun weekend.
I had a few questions about tool control and how to keep all my fingers with the sharp square bowl edges but the main issue was the presentation of the bowl gouge to achieve a SLICING cut. I brought the person to the lathe side and let him hold the gouge and present it like he thought I had been showing.... Here is the neat part he held the handle level and the flute fully open!!! That is the recipe for a big catch and just using the gouge as a scraper, but it illustrates that even when someone is shown how to hold the gouge and how to present the edge, they might not actually get it.
It was enlightening and fun to see the lights come on when I guided his arms, hands and body positions so the edge of the gouge was slicing the wood with the bevel following along on the wood. We even did a curve like a cap on the end of a 2" short in the chuck. He got it, and there was no tear out! It did take a few tries.
Long winded, but I wanted to emphasize the SLICING THE WOOD part and not just sticking the gouge into the wood with a fully open flute.
Peter F.

[Reed Gray]

Prashun makes a good point, and one that I know, but don't always remember to teach. When roughing, I am cutting the wood how I want to cut it, which means I am cutting very fast, and am getting tear out because I am using a scraper, it removes wood very fast, though not clean and pretty. When I get down to 'fairly close' I take much lighter and slower 'shaping' cuts, so tear out is less. Then finish cuts are all high shear angle, and shear scrapes.

I don't think it is possible to remove all tear out unless you are cutting end grain. You can feel the 1/4 sections of rough/smooth/rough/smooth on the bowl if you slowly rotate it with your hand on the bowl.

As for the speed part, I think the biggest benefit of high speed is 'more cuts per inch' if that makes any sense. With the outside of the bowl, there is a lot of mass so the wood won't vibrate as it spins. When you turn out the inside, as you remove the mass, the walls get very flexible, and will move, or as Prashun says, start to chatter. This is more of a problem the thinner you go. This is one reason why we tend to finish turn the inside of larger bowls in steps of an inch or so at a time, then take off more, and finish turn the next inch.

I have recently come to think that part of the bowl's chattering is caused by the grain orientation. As it spins, it flexes more in one direction (side grain) than it does in the other (end grain), and that is part of why they go oval.

robo hippy

[Prashun Patel]

I have recently come to think that part of the bowl's chattering is caused by the grain orientation. As it spins, it flexes more in one direction (side grain) than it does in the other (end grain), and that is part of why they go oval.

Wow! Thanks for this one!

[Wally Dickerman]

I've read your list of suggestions...

Sharp tools....of course.

Scraper for final cut....I agree partly..I usually use a heavy duty RN scraper with a very light touch in the bottom inside a bowl top to smooth it up. You're not dealing with end grain there. (Raffans system)

Turn at highest speed....Bad advice. Surface speed is what you are concerned with not RPMs. Turn larger bowls at a slower speed than small ones for obvious reasons. Turn at a comfortable speed. You'll probably increase your speed as you gain experience

Sand sand sand.....learn to use your tools for smoother cuts to eliminate much sanding. When using the heaviest grits, use oil. You'll be surprised at the results. However, don't overuse sandpaper. Use it like your brother in-law is paying for it.

Final cuts should always be done with the grain. Against the grain will guarantee tearout. Ride the bevel lightly