Woodworking for a living?

[Michael Yadfar]

By woodworking I mean working out of a shop, not carpentry. I woodwork as a hobby, an expensive hobby, and I'm relatively new at it. Woodworking is something I've considered as a career, and I feel like it's more of a side job or retirement type of career. I'm in the horticultural field and that's a big hobby too, so I do have a career with steady employment, so I don't plan to give it up to wood work full time. However though, I'm interested in what people have to say that do it as a career.

Anyway, the conclusion of my thought is that it wouldn't make a career. Again, I'm not talking carpentry like basement remodels and such, which people have suggested and also consider woodworking since you can built some neat custom stuff, but I'm speaking if working out of a shop. I feel you can become successful if you are confident you can make a name for yourself, but that's what you HAVE to do. From personal experience, it's impossible to match conventional furniture prices, because I typically use higher quality materials, build to higher standards, and don't have an assembly line. It takes hours more doing it yourself at high quality. I also feel there's little demand for the stuff too (unless you make a name for yourself) simply because typical consumers can't even tell the difference between venire and solid wood, let alone fine details, so they will go for the lower price.

[Mark Bolton]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Well, custom casework is relatively simple to break into. There's demand, but whether or not you'll find it simple to get the money you want, especially as a single-person operation is another matter. You might consider installing Ikea type kitchens for awhile to get a feel for that side of the cabinet business. Technically you can just order everything from other shops and manufacturers and just do assembly and installation. It's arguably not woodworking but you get paid for managing and selling the job just the same.

Jim Tolpin wrote a couple of books on making cabinets for a living. I recommend reading one of those.

In terms of being a furniture maker my advice is, while you have the income from your other job, is to develop mastery skills beyond joinery. Finishing, veneering, things like that you can use to give your work proprietary appeal. Some people who make studio furniture have a basically free source of fine wood as managers of some sort of large piece of wooded land. This is a considerable advantage for certain styles of work.

For fine furniture, there's also the matter of locating yourself in an area where there is a sufficient wealthy population to buy your work.

[Justin Ludwig]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

I agree.

I've only been given carte blanche on a job once in 3 years. Though, most of my ideas get included into the clients ideal end product. For the most part, it's trying to make the cabinets fit their budget, and that can be rather boring sometimes in terms of design.

[Michael Yadfar]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

Thats probably why I wouldn't be successful wood worker as a living. I can't cut corners or build to quality lower than my standards, but if someone wants to pay x amount of dollars for a table, that's what I would have to do. I remember back in high school, I was building a lamp and the school year ran out on me. The teacher told me to do one less coat of finish, and then I asked if he will be around after school ends. He said "yes, why?", and I told him that if I finish this thing I want to finish it right, even after school ends. He told me that's the best thing a student ever told him in 35 years and he will remember that for the rest of his life

[john lawson]

You can make a living at it, especially if you live in a large metropolitan area. I did it and now my son has taken over my shop. But as another father/son team once said "it's a hard way to make a good living or a good way to make a hard living". My son is probably making 50 to 60k now after 2 years.

We focused on a couple of markets that allowed us to grow and still do work we enjoyed. One is furniture repair. It is very good if you can learn to do touch up work. There are a lot of people who will pay $75 to have a chair re-glued properly, and many times it will take an hour or less. There are also a lot of antique case pieces that people have a sentimental attachment to, and they will pay to have them veneered or new legs made. Another market is designers who will commission custom pieces. We have made many custom pieces for designers that are made from a picture. Once you get the reputation of being able to duplicate a photo people will hear about and bring you work. We made many four poster beds over the years.

Here are a couple of other ideas. Decide if you will pick up and deliver or not. If you do the pickup and deliver be sure you charge for it because you will spend way too much time doing just that. It will also encourage people to ask you to "come look at this" and then they will decide not to use you because of price. NOT offering pick up and delivery will save a lot of time and allow you to focus in your shop, but you will obviously miss out on some business as well.

Last, will it be just you or will you have someone to help? Depending on your physical condition and age this could be the most important single question. If there are two of you you can take on larger work. After I stopped working in my shop my son took on a sub tenant who rents the front 1/3rd of the shop and does upholstry. They help each other move large pieces around the shop and it really helps both of them. There is also some synergy from customers who use both of them on some pieces.

[johnny means]

These are my favorite answers to that question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY

Sorry if I seem negative, but it's really hard to work in this field and not be jaded.

[john lawson]

Those videos are hilarious, and so much truth in them!!

[Mark Bolton]

Well it's not that inherently being in business you have to lower your standards or do poor quality work though its something that comes up often.

Its no different than any profession, you are going to have a hard time being sucessfull if your always delivering substantially more than your being compensated for. It'd be like working an extra 10 hours a week for a company that doesn't pay overtime and is never going to promote you. Its just bad business.

What really happens in my experience is what Justin outlined. You spend a lot of time working with your customer to come to a balance between the customers budget, your standards, and what you can deliver based on those two criteria.

Just pointing out that its not fair to believe that anyone in business is reducing their quality to be in business. I understand the concept though from the hobby world where over engineering and over thinking is so prevalent.

Another component is if for instance you lean towards contemporary /modern but you get some lucrative work that is rustic/country. If your not flush with work or just getting started you can wind up building quality stuff that you just don't care much for.

[Moses Yoder]

Its definitely difficult. Its my opinion you have to have a firm eye on business and can in no way get caught in the romance of what "you" want to make or what "you" like.

I think makers of anything who are successful, other than a very rare few, will tell you that they make what sells and wait/hope for the rare opportunities to make work you really like.

Isn't what we like our own choice? I love my job. There are a few aspects of it I don't like, but mostly I love it. I believe that is because I choose to. I could also choose to hate it.

I have made my living as a woodworker since 1986. If you really love money, do something besides woodworking for a living. Learn how to hack credit card numbers or play the lotto. I have supported my wife and both children by myself most of that time, my wife worked part time the last few years and just got promoted to full time as a bank teller. I probably averaged around $25,000 per year. We have always had everything we needed, we eat good and healthy, and I have had time to spend with my family and also to pursue some hobbies.

[Mark Bolton]

Isn't what we like our own choice? I love my job. There are a few aspects of it I don't like, but mostly I love it. I believe that is because I choose to. I could also choose to hate it.

I have made my living as a woodworker since 1986. If you really love money, do something besides woodworking for a living. Learn how to hack credit card numbers or play the lotto. I have supported my wife and both children by myself most of that time, my wife worked part time the last few years and just got promoted to full time as a bank teller. I probably averaged around $25,000 per year. We have always had everything we needed, we eat good and healthy, and I have had time to spend with my family and also to pursue some hobbies.

I can agree to an extent and I've read your perspective on perceptions vs reality/life is what you make it before ;-)

Its unfortunately not all that widely adopted in my experience LOL.

I have lived (and still do for the most part) a very modest life though perhaps not as modest as 25k/year especially with children (which I don't have). A humble and modest existence is great but it doesn't do much for retirement, investment in insurance, college funds, business planning and growth (even modest), and so on, in my opinion.

I agree though, life is what you make it.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Just because being a custom cabinetmaker is a sort of low hanging fruit doesn't mean it's the right business for you. It's not for me, even though I do it. There's a lot of budget stuff with middle class, even affluent customers... and it's competitive in affluent areas. I do it just to support my development process as a furniture maker set up for proprietary (curved and technical) designs and with expertise appropriate to executing designs for designers who have clients with serious money.

I sincerely recommend everybody interested in selling work to affluent people read "No B.S. Marketing To The Affluent" by Dan Kennedy.

[Albert Lee]

I start out with making $8k a year spending 4 hours a week, now I am doing it 12 hours a week but earning $30k from last year.

This is how I find it, there is woodworking and there is business, some craftman will spend hours and hours hand craft an item for sale at $100, because this is good workmanship. for a business, they probably employee someone carry out the hand crafting and spend their time looking for the sales/marketing. I am on the edge of employee someone to carry out the laborious work and I will be out there updating the design and looking for the "business", connecting people and all.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I have worked solely in my woodshop for a living for 13 years. I never go out of the shop for my work unless it's the rare delivery, when I simply drop the stuff off. No installations or set-ups, etc. I have no commute and I set my own hours.

In order to facilitate these good aspects of my occupation, there is a significant downside : I don't make the things I want to make. I must do what I get orders to do. I make consumer items which are sold by others. It's steady work. In fact, more than I can handle most of the time.

..And then, there's my hobby time when I get to make the things I want to make. That part doesn't make me money but it does allow me to exercise my craving for design and satisfaction when I get to give it to its intended recipient.

[Michael Yadfar]

These are my favorite answers to that question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY

Sorry if I seem negative, but it's really hard to work in this field and not be jaded.

Just got around to watch these and I loved them. First one shows my logic on why I don't plan to be a cabinet maker for a living, why I'll stick to what I do now. It's so true. Second one made me laugh because this is the average consumer, I liked the reference on how she wanted to "go green" with mahogany an imported material, while she also lives in a 5,600 sq ft house. Highlights the issues of our society haha

I created this thread to more see out of curiosity how people in this custom woodworking field do. I know a guy who does alright doing custom basement remodels and that kind of work, but that falls more in the line of carpentry, because he will actually buy cheap cabinets from Home Depot for his remodel rather then build them unless the customer wants something custom. Even then he may use venered partical board, because the "average consumer" can't even tell the difference let alone the reason for better materials, as long as it's "pretty looking". It's kind of like how you can probably get a car from the junk yard, freshly paint it, and find someone to buy it.

Personally, I think I may just build little projects as something on the side, just as some return on my hobby. A produce store told me that they would buy bird houses from me to sell, nothing elaborate, just something I can mass produce. It won't make me a living obviously because they probably won't be a hot sell and I might make $5-10 profit on each house, but it's easy and a bit extra money in the pockets. I'm sure I can easily market something like cutting boards too, and maybe build an occasional table, which can probably make me a few bucks on the side