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Thread: Choice of sharpening media for gouges etc?

  1. #1
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    Choice of sharpening media for gouges etc?

    Hi all, posting here because there seem to be quite a few options about for a sharpening kit for shaped/curved/angled edge carving chisels - and I'd appreciate some help on choice. There's a set of Two Cherries paring/in cannel gouges and a corner chisel that need sharpening right now. The aim though is to get set up with as generally useful a honing kit for shaped tools as possible because it seems likely that the odd carving carving tool will come my way.

    My recently set up sharpening regime for standard woodworking edge tools is Shapton waterstones, with a WorkSharp (off the top platform) and/or a disc sander where heavier metal removal is required to form primary bevels. Light stropping only on MDF to finish to preserve edge geometry.

    The Two Cherries paring gouges proved a right PIA as result of massive over polishing in the factory - it required cutting the last 1/2 in off all three, and doing a huge amount of remedial work on the backs to create a cylindrical/straight surface/overcome the effects of heavy dubbing/rounding over of the cutting edge. The primary bevels were reground using the (long) grinding cone in the drill press method, with angle set by locating the handles in a hole in a piece of ply clamped to the table. Slowish, but turned out very well. - the key is probably to source a fast cutting grinding cone from a specialist supplier. (many are hard and don't remove a lot of metal as they are made for fine finishing)

    I've been struggling to find a suitable sharpening kit. Profiled waterstones are available, but seem likely to be problematical as a result of high rates of wear. The Chris Pye/Norton sets of coarse and fine signature slip stones look like a very effective general purpose kit, and a good choice http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/s...ones_and_Slips, but i'm cautious about the need to use oil in the sharpening area. (but will bite the bullet if needed) Ceramic slip stones sound like a very good (if more expensive) idea given their minimal wear, but there doesn't seem to be any multi profile kit of slips available a la Chris Pye. Diamond might be an option, but shapes seem again to be limited, and the characteristics are not my favourite.

    Guess i'm hoping somebody can say that there's other options out there that haven't come up yet...

    Thanks

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-14-2014 at 6:47 AM.

  2. #2
    I use a home made sharpening disk on my lathe. When you sharpen carving tools, you mostly just need to hone them. It's only when you drop one on a concrete floor and really damage the edge that you need to do any grinding. The sharpening disk I made has sandpaper on the front to use when you have to grind an edge, but otherwise, I just use the leather as a hone. I don't have anything that shows the use of the disk, but I do have a tutorial on how to make one. You can see it here.

    You can, of course, sharpen carving tools by hand but a power sharpening device is much faster - which allows you to spend more time carving. I was told by a professional carver that when he estimates the time to take for a carving, he allocates 1/3 of the time to sharpening. There's a saying in carving - "If you can't sharpen, you can't carve."

    Mike

    [To hone the inside of a gouge - well, actually you don't hone the inside of a gouge - you just need to take a few swipes on the edge of a leather charged with honing compound. You just want to remove any wire edge that might have formed.]
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  3. #3
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    Hi Mike, that's a nice looking job on the disc. Stropping is great in respect of how amenable it is to setting up our own arrangements. As it happens I can cover similar bases via the stropping wheel on a Tormek, and the WorkSharp top/glass disc. That seems fine for an out-cannel/outside bevel gouge, but the set I have are the inside bevel/paring type.

    The immediate task at hand is to hone and finish the semi circular/curved inside bevel on these, although I was hoping to get set up with something that would handle any future inside profiles. The Tormek has the accessory set up for stropping the inside of Vs and curves, but it's a small radius and it anyway seems like a lot to ask stropping to take the bevel all the way from rough ground to finished.

    I'd been thinking along the lines of semi circular profiled slip stones or similar to put on a finely finished secondary bevel, and then use the Tormek 'inside' stropping disc to finish. Perhaps I'm missing something...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-13-2014 at 12:15 PM.

  4. #4
    Okay, sorry. I missed the in-cannel. Never having owned in-cannel gouges I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions. I'll be interested to see what other people say.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  5. #5
    For incannel gouges I estabish the edge (don't remove any more than you have to, it creates a lot of work) and then use a combination of slips and cones (as in abrasive cones to set the bevel on the gouges the first time you clean up one that's been neglected). The abrasive cones I've gotten have just come from harbor freight, something you can get over there from any mail order chain that has some industrial supplies. Silicon carbide or aluminum oxide, just try to get something that's got a decent thin longer taper - as much as you can get, and not something that has a fat stubby cone.

    I like an india slip for coarse stone work (they still get out of shape, though, and you have to watch them) and a hard ark slip to finish things off. You can use a leather V wheel or something on a lathe if you want to, with compound, but be careful because they can dub an edge pretty easily, and then you have to regrind some.

    You are correct about the waterstone slips - they are fragile and need to be kept carefully in shape and used lightly - or more directly, avoided.

    Once you set the bevel on them, and clean up the outside of the edge (work past any pitting or remove any drastic tooling marks) you can keep them in shape with just the slips.

    They are a pain to repair damage on, so use them delicately.

  6. #6
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    Thanks David, sounds like those are about the choices available on slip stones. We unfortunately don't have the likes of Harbour Freight over here, and end up paying premium prices for slips. There's waterstone cones about at around $45 plus each about another $20 in shipping (with at least two grits needed - and it may not be possible to get finer than 4000) - but i've been struggling to find much else except in very coarse grits and steep tapers. Oilstones are less commonly available. The Chris Pye/Norton India and hard Arkansas oilstone set is expensive but nice option at around $100 from the UK - it sounds like it's worth the complications of the oil given the better wear.

    This is a bit of a budget operation, so pending more frequent need I think i'll try honing as you have mentioned before on a dowel wrapped with the locally available silicon carbide paper (the lapping films from 3M and the like are ruinously expensive here - but ordinary wet and dry comes in grades down to at least 2000) - it's cheap and should get the job done for the moment.

    I'm cautious as yourself of dubbing the edges when stropping, and am more drawn to honing a sharp edge using fine stones and then stropping lightly on a rigid surface to remove any roughness - but will risk a light touch up on the Tormek to see what happens. I guess a DIY strop made of leather wrapped around a dowel might be an option too.

    The following photos (pardon the bad light) might be of interest to others looking in. The middle is the bevel grinding set up, with thanks to the blog from which the idea was borrowed the name of which I can't remember. The angle is about 21 deg - on the basis that it can be honed much steeper if a tougher edge is required/its a paring gouge. The drill press runs at max rpm (around 2,500 rpm) as it's a small diameter. (= lower surface speed/rpm) The grinding cone I found had the advantage of keeping its shape as a result of being hard, but cut more slowly than I would have liked - cooling in water after every few secs, and greatly reducing pressure and time as the edge thins to prevent overheating. It needs care to overcome the sideways force generated by the friction, but is very controllable. It proved possible to both place the gouge at the point required to get a given diameter, and also to work localised sections of the bevel when needed - the blade forgings were quite a bit thicker on one side than the other on some of the gouges.

    The last is the resulting bevel before honing.

    For paring (there may be other uses for these gouges?) the backs need to be prepared before doing the bevels more or less as the first photo - working by hand on an 80 grit sanding disc (in the case of the 24mm shown which was very badly dubbed from the factory - this latter needs a lot of care as it's very aggressive/needs a good support to work from/easy to ruin the blade/skin a finger - keep to very brief 1 - 2 sec passes only, and cool in water in between to avoid overheating - very easy on a corner) and then on the top of the disc on the Work Sharp using 120 and then 500 grit diamond lapidary discs from EBay. Then finished on standard flat waterstones. It's necessary to get a nice rocking motion going to generate a pretty true circle and evenly work the full back surface - taking care not to overdo the edges to the sides. Getting the 1000 grit to cut all over took a little time (but wasn't bad/was mostly about removing the grit finish left by the WorkSharp - which latter generates a very true surface), but bringing up the polish on successively finer waterstones is very quick.

    In cannel gouges are hard work….

    in cannel gouge flattened back 14-7-14.jpg in cannel gouge bevel grinding set up 14-7-14.jpg re-ground in cannel gouge bevel close up 14-7-14.jpg
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-14-2014 at 10:52 AM.

  7. #7
    If you have a diamond hone or a coarse silicon carbide stone, don't be afraid to touch up the grinding cone - it's going to get out of shape eventually anyway and you'll help keep it true by doing that.

    Your gouge picture looks ideal. Of course the resolution isn't good enough to gauge exactly what's at the edge, but if the edge is crisp, I'm sure the only other determinant is whether or not the bevel is steep enough to avoid damage - something you'll be able to tell quickly in use.

    As far as the branded or signature sharpening stuff, I usually try to avoid it because it's marked up and I'm not a huge fan of that. I'd look for one multiform slip in translucent ark, and one in medium or fine india, that should help you do a lot of what you need.

    For fairly large gouges like the one you've shown, a wooden slip made just by planing or sanding a piece of hardwood to shape would also be a good idea for anything you do a lot.

    If you steepen the bevel just to the point that the gouges don't take damage from light malleting, they are nice (incannels) for light malleting work. I don't do a lot of carving, just little bits (like transitions on tools or whatever), so I don't know how someone using them heavily would set their stuff up. I've only chanced by incannels, and don't do patternmaking work, etc - I'll use whatever I can get my hands on to do the little bits of carving I do (as opposed to the prescriptive stuff that folks do in this forum).

    Hopefully once you get things set up, though, you can keep your edges in shape for a long time just with touchups.

    You could avoid the slips if they just can't be found in a good price there and put compound on dowels, too, as a finishing touch. If you flip your sandpaper over after you've exhausted it, the paper on the back sometimes makes a nice place for something like autosol (which to my knowledge is about 3 micron aluminum oxide).

  8. #8
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    Pleased to hear it looks broadly OK as I'm flying a little blind David. The principles carry over from more general sharpening and use thinking I guess. The plan is to hone to about 25 deg. The post grinding edge seems OK, about as thin as i could go before forming a wire edge and the line of the back carries right to the edge. Picked up some fine paper today to use for honing - I made a jig for this purpose about a year ago after I first bought the gouges for a still live plan to carve a concave line an experimental leg shape. It presents a cylinder of whatever diameter at the height of the main surface so that it's possible to use the honing guide with it - although it'll take a bit of angling/skidding the roller to do the inner sides of the 'U'.

    The standard waterstones ( discussed elsewhere) have been a bit of a revelation - the speed of cut and ability to get rapidly to a polished finish make them really useful.

    Thanks for the suggestion on truing/dressing the cone, i was a bit wary of using a diamond plate for fear it would damage it. I have a couple of old carborundum stones, but didn't realise they would do it. Also lots of Autosol and Tormek stropping compound.

    Which begs a related question. The Chinese diamond lapidary discs bought for the WorkSharp lost their bite fairly quickly. (after flattening the backs on about six old Marples chisels) I have a couple of DMT plates which are also losing their cut. Wonder if there is a way of refreshing diamonds in this sort of situation?

  9. #9
    There's no good way of refreshing diamonds on those plates. They have a nickel plate bond, but if you're lucky the nickel plate bond may have completely given way exposing softer metal below. Anything softer (mild steel, whatever else) would be a suitable substrate for diamonds given the price. You can try putting some loose diamonds on the plates and seeing how they stick. Put them on and work them in briefly with something before turning the machine on.

    Danger with that is loose diamonds flying around contaminating things, because diamonds don't break down that easily. At least if you contaminate something with carborundum/silicon carbide, it fractures easily and will soon be forgotten, even if it's hidden on the surface of something.

    All of the electroplate hones require very light pressure in use, and low enough speed to keep temperature down.

    If you're doing a lot of softwood, you'll be OK with 25 degrees. If I were using an incannel gouge on hardwood, I'd add a secondary bevel or round the bevel a bit to 30 degrees or so just because damage is such a pain to deal with on them. It can take minutes to repair, instead of a minute, and it's not my idea of fun standing around the shop using a cone.

    I'd probably avoid the sharpening cones with anything diamond other than a diamond truing tool (like the cheap chinese T shaped tool that the woodworking junk peddlers sell), because the coarse grit will reach to the plating and wear it right off. Silicon carbide stone is a good bet unless your cones are hard silicon carbide, then you'll just have to try and see what you get.

    Tormek compound looks and smells (and cuts) identical to autosol to me. I think only the tube paint is different.

  10. #10
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    Ta David, some great info there. It'd definitely be better not to mix loose diamonds with moving parts. It may be that the diamond lapidary discs need very gentle handling or something, and they may well continue working at a lower levels of cut. They have a pretty finite life though, and could prove expensive on the WorkSharp compared to buying good quality self adhesive AlOx paper discs by the box from an industrial supplier. (as opposed to at fancy branded prices) Agree on the compound, I used a lot of Solvol on motorcycles over the years….

    The gouges were finished tonight, and are cutting well. The silicon carbide paper (800/1500/2500 grits) on the DIY dowel honing jig (see photos below) with a quick finishing strop is definitely one way of getting to a sharp edge. The jig was a first try, and threw up some insights that may be worth sharing (but only for those with a real interest) - I have to say that it's probable that a set of conical honing stones of appropriate diameters (see below) and ideally in a low wear material would probably be a better and more convenient bet. If using a guide is preferred over hand sharpening they could also be jigged up in a similar way to the arrangement below.

    The most basic insight is that the geometry of the cutting edge on in cannel gouges is not straightforward - in that even if the back of the gouge is a perfect semi circle in section (which it probably won't be) - the intersecting surface of the (angled) primary bevel definitely won't be. Not if the cutting edge must also end up cross wise straight/in a plane square to the axis of the tool. (which may be required for stuff like chopping, marking or cutting a semi circular corner in a flat bottomed rebate) Which means that honing using a guide and a cylindrical stone in exclusively a straight line isn't an option.

    Maybe there's a way around it, but it seems likely that the best option is to use a roughly semicircular section honing stone (or grinding cone when grinding), and to choose a section of diameter a bit smaller than the semi circle created by the bevel. (this was what I somewhat accidentally did) Done that way it's possible to skew and tilt the hone/stone as needed to work each section of bevel as needed to end up with the primary (ground) bevel and/or the eventual honing bevel and the back face meeting at the cutting edge in the correct plane. The downside/complication that emerged was that it proved necessary to laterally skew or tilt the undersize DIY paper and dowel hone to create the correct bevel angle at the side of the 'U'/at the corners. Which suggests also that a slightly undersized but tapered cone of the sort sold for the purpose may be a better bet than a cylinder like I used - in that it will to quite a degree tend automatically to bevel both sides of the 'U'.

    You pointed to it before David, but it's easy to see why stropping is the most attractive option to refresh the edge of an in cannel gouge - grinding and honing require careful working of each part of the cutting edge if its to end up straight.

    The photos: (1) basic jig and guide set up; (2) slot for the abrasive paper wrapped around the dowel to hang through (can be secured with a binder clip), (3) alternative inserts for smaller dowels for other gouge sizes that place the top surface at the correct height; (4) skewing the guide to hone the sides of the 'U'; and (5) 'they cut…..'


    gouge honing jig w si car paper & guide 14-7-14.jpg gouge honing jig slot for si ca apeper 14-7-14.jpg gouge honing jig inserts for diff sias 14-7-14.jpg gouge honing jig guide skewed to sharpen corner 14-7-14.jpg gouge honing jig it cuts 14-7-14.jpg
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-14-2014 at 8:35 PM.

  11. #11
    You definitely want to get away from the jig for anything but possibly primary work. You'll develop a quick feel for what's about 25 and what's about 30 with all tools.

    I say that because a few strokes here and there on finish stones with these, or slips, being judicious to not allow any steep strokes, and for practical purposes of projects, you'll be in business for a very long time before any correcting is needed.

    Sharpening them with slips is subtle, but it's also an exercise in not doing more than is needed to keep them in good shape, and a charged dowel is maybe faster and easier.

    There is also some lesson in the edge being sharp and not worrying about geometric perfection for some time until the work tells you that you need to worry about it. It's easy to get it geometrically perfect, it's easy to get it sharp, to get it both and keep it both consciously will take a lot of time and not necessarily affect the work product. It'll tell you what does - I've got a set of old patternmaker's gouges, incannel, that were used a fair amount and the geometry is far from perfect, but they were sharp - whoever was using them decided sharp was more important than a perfect autocad graphic edge, and though the edge isn't even, the uneven edge is sharp, if you know what I mean.

  12. #12
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    Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head - it's as you say getting the geometry spot on and the edge sharp at the same time that's the harder part. The jig has its uses, but isn't the whole story. I found myself reverting to hand finishing the honing on the dowels last night because of the flexibility and ease of 'do a bit and take a look at what's happening' that it gives. Coming from just a primary bevel it's easy to end up with a persistently blunt bit on an edge, and it's important to hone just that until it's gone as the effect will otherwise be to cause an already sharp section of the edge to recede/lose it's line. Given a good primary bevel it's not too hard to find the honing angle. Apart from the need to manipulate its alignment at times the guide means to quite a degree working blind...

    The gouges are at least done for the moment, and as you say should with stropping cover the bases for a while. The larger sizes came out spot on (sharp and straight), the smallest not quite (roughly 8mm) in that the corners ended up getting honed back a shade - but it's perfectly functional.

    It's on to other stuff now, and in the meantime the plan is to keep an eye open for some slip stones. The requirement in these is by now is a lot clearer. (conical, long taper, preferably in a hard wearing material, rouded edges in several diameters, coarse and finishing grades etc)

    Thanks for all the help...

  13. #13
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    PS This Japanese gentleman came up on YouTube while searching for sharpening information: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmwl8vePMac Absolutely awe inspiring, and scary to think of the variety of tool sharpening techniques involved. Take a look at his tool roll at 3.57...

  14. #14
    Kotaro Tanaka's page is an interesting one to go through (I have it subscribed on youtube). He hasn't been uploading a ton of stuff, but the library of past-loaded stuff is gigantic and has some stuff in it.

    I recall reading something several years ago about a cabinetmaker who does carving having 100 carving tools historically, and specialist trade carvers accumulating as many as 400.

    George's wall of carving chisels, and rolling chests with stuff probably numbers a couple of hundred.

  15. #15
    Wow. You guys certainly put a lot of time , thought, effort and money into sharpening your chisels. I feel like a slacker spending maybe 10 minutes of a 10 hr carving day tending to chisels.

    I'd love to see some examples of the work you produce with these chisels. They must be awesome.
    The Woodworking Studio

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