Please help me move into Festool

[Matt Lau]

Dear Creekers,

Please help me spend my money.
I have a rather unique set of needs, and I'm thinking of going festool (or festool-like).

• Safety is important: I absolutely can't afford to injure my hands. I'm a dentist.
• Dust control is important: I'm in an apartment in SF, but can work on the veranda.
• Portability is important: if my landlord decides to sell, I'd like to fit things in my Corolla.
• Money is tight: While I'm a dentist, most of my money goes to continued education or necessary expenses (insurance, license, etc). I also spend a significant time serving the under served/under-insured through the county--my paycheck is definitely not big.
• I mainly build guitars, smaller things, but I'd like to make a built in closet for my mom and my sister.

Currently, I'm compiling a list of tools to save up and buy.
Could you recommend a set of tools?

My current tool set:

• Ryobi coded hand drill. Eggbeater drill. Ryobi drill bits, reamer. Yankee brace 2100
• Japanese hand saws. Greenlee hacksaw
• Japanese chisels (full set)
• Japanese hand planes, Veritas Low angle jack, Veritas #3 smoother.
• Milled Straight edges. Starret square. Mitotoyo Calipers. Kebiki.
• Three normal cam clamps; 6 small "luthier's" cam clamps
• A bunch of NOS Nicholsen files
• Some crappy screwdrivers. A cheap happer. A glen-drake Tite hammer #4.
• Bosch Colt. Dremel. Milwakee router 1.5 router. Fein vacuum.
• Blum workbench. holdfasts. benchdogs. homemade bench puppies
• Rockwell bandsaw. Bosch jigsaw

Interim/transitional tools (next 2 years):

• Makita tracksaw (instead of ts55)
• pocket hole jig
• Sound baffle cabinet for Fein vac (better hose storage, sound dampening, can stack stuff on top)

Future tool set:

• Festool CT26
• Bosch cordless drill/driver DDS181 (instead of t18)
• homemade MFTC or Paulk table (MFT)
• Ceros sander
• Carvex
• dw611 router (instead of OP1100)
• Domino

I'd like to hear your suggestions.
Nonfestool things would be nice too (more clamps? drill press?)

[Chris Padilla]

"Money tight" and "Festool" aren't the best of partners but they design their tools with dust collection in mind and they do excel at it!

The Kreg pocket hole jig is very nice and wonderful for quickly putting basic boxes together.

It sounds like you are on right track with your tools!

[Bill McNiel]

Plus 1 on Festool and tight money not being compatable concepts. With that said, here are my thoughts;
Seems like your existing tools are a solid start (except the junk screw drivers).

Kreig Jig will simplify many projects.

Look at the Bosch 12v combo set. I am really pleased with it and don't really see the need for you to get 18V. Plus, it is really nice to have both toys and not have to switch bits.

Future tools - Stick with Festool ($ at the start but they are fantastic, will last forever and the dust collection is amazing).
Look at the Midi vs CT26, smaller, same suction, less $.
Domino 500
OF 1400 router
Try the Festool sanders at a store and choose from there. RO 125 may serve your needs well.

Hope this helps as opposed to confuses.

[Mike Henderson]

The problem with Festool, like many tools that fall into that category, is that they will come out with new (improved) versions of their products - which will tempt you to upgrade. Sort of like smart phones. We upgrade long before our old one breaks.

That said, the Domino is a very good tool.

For many of the other Festool tools, you can find other brands which will do an excellent job at much lower cost. The Festool may be somewhat better, but will cost a whole lot more. Like many people, I started with very basic tools and was able to produce decent projects. As your skills improve, you may decide to purchase higher cost tools (seems that chisels and sharpening equipment falls into that category). I'd recommend going slowly.

Mike

[Michael Kellough]

Get a Festool Midi vac instead of the CT26. You'll save money and space and the Midi is much more portable.

[Victor Robinson]

Why do you need a Festool vac if you already have a Fein it seems?

[Clint Baxter]

Why do you need a Festool vac if you already have a Fein it seems?

My question as well. I have three Fein vacs and a CT26. The main advantage of the CT26 is the ride along storage on top. It came standard with the HEPA, but Fein has HEPA available as well. Fein saves you from buying bags as well.

Clint.

[William C Rogers]

I can only comment on the Ceros sander. Stay with that instead of a Festool sander as it is easier to use and has much better dust control IMO.

[Matt Meiser]

Since you want a portable shop, I'd look at the TS55 again. As a track saw and rail, the Makita is stiff competition, but if you want to expand to the MFT later, the Makita is a dead-end road.

[RDave Evans]

Since you want a portable shop, I'd look at the TS55 again. As a track saw and rail, the Makita is stiff competition, but if you want to expand to the MFT later, the Makita is a dead-end road.

Great advice. The thing about Festool is buying into the system because it all fits together. Get a rail with holes with the TS55 and that will work with some very expensive accessories for their routers. The festool rail also works with the routers for straight cuts along longer distances. The big advantage of festool comes when you jump into the green pond with both feet.

[Prashun Patel]

You sound like a candidate for more hand tools if most of your work is smaller and intricate and you live in an apartment. This will allow you to work at all hours.

If the built-in is a one-off project, then the home center, a simple circular saw, a shop-made cutting guide, and a drill pin jig can make you most of a closet built in.

The Domino is an amazingly versatile tool, and worth every penny IMHO. However, if money is tight, then a good substitute is a Dowelmax or Jessem Dowel jig. All three of these are HUGE time savers (if time is also at a premium for you).

[Matt Lau]

I have a rather weird (but good) situation.

Most of the time, I live in a cozy in-law-unit in SF.
I moved here because I wanted to be closer to my patients (should the need arise).
The downside is that I have to be careful about noise, messiness, and stuff has to be moved out of the way when done.

However, I have a private workshop near my parent's place.
I have the 14" bandsaw, big router, and an old Rockwell 9" tablesaw that scares me.
It's also where I store most of my wood.

I like to look at value, over cost.
I learned early on (with Grizzly planes vs Veritas) that money saved on a crappy tool, is money wasted.
However, I also don't want to go spend $$$ on a tool that I won't use (like the dewalt scrollsaw that I bought years ago).
I guess that's what I mean about money being tight?

While money is tight--with discipline, I'll slowly build up the toolset.
I can envision a dual toolset (as most luthiers do).

Heavy iron: Dimensioning, resawing, rough thicknessing. Here's where I'll stick my Fein (with a dust deputy).
Frankly, aside from drill press (which I'll have to buy), bandsaw (my fave power tool) and thickness sander (which I'll need to build--I may never build one, since I love my planes)--I really don't like power tools. I find routers to be loud, messy and scary (but very useful). My skillsaw gets the job done, but makes an awful mess with dubious accuracy. The tablesaw has power to spare, but can end my career with one slip.

Eventually, I can picture selling everything (except the bandsaw, and maybe a bench drill press) if I get married and have kids.
Too many dangerous things to hurt kids. I can buy the wood pre-thicknessed (albeit at a hefty cost)

Portable toolset: minimal noise/dust, onsite installation (honey-do favors for mom), flexibility.
Here's where I see the Festool coming in. No risk of cutting off fingers (unless I'm really stupid).
Flexibility to do almost everything that needs a full sized shop. Fits in well with my modular, portable philosophy.
Plus, I can make any guitar jig in minutes, instead of hours, using higher quality sheet goods than the big box stores.

Having the Festool Vac connect to everything else is very nice, as is better chord storage and hose storage (my biggest gripe with Fein).
It's probably more to do with the really cool videos that I keep seeing (Paulk workbench, MFTC).
Of course, I may make an enclosure that clicks to the systainers and make a "poor man's festool vac" that is much quieter, a little smaller, and much cheaper.

-Matt


ps. RDave, Thanks for the tips, I guess that I'll be saving for the TS system when my birthday comes around.
I was thinking of bypassing the excellent Festool Routers for the Dewalt 611 plunge trim router, as it's much smaller and less expensive (with great dust control).
Would you still recommend getting into the Festool rails?

I've looked at the vast array of well designed Festool accessories, and I honestly think that I can make most of them (or improve on some, or buy some cheaper alternatives).
When I was a broke dental student, I bought some fancy specialized stuff from Stewmac before I learned the value of better tools to make tools.
Of course, my time is getting much more expensive...

pps. Prashun, You are speaking to the choir. I have been following a number of your posts. I'm also a huge fan of Wilbur Pan's blog.
I've never used a joinery jig before, as it felt like cheating. However, it takes me too long to make a joint that I'm happy with.

I'm really hoping for something that is cheap over the lifetime of the tool.
For example, $186 was a lot of money when I bought a blemished LV LA Jack...but it's dead accurate, a pleasure to use, and has replaced several planes (rough thicknessing, fine finish, shooting, jointing soundboards) quite well. Mine was a tremendous value...at 5x the cost of a BORG stanley or ebay special (that may take days for me to fix).

[Greg R Bradley]

Some input from someone who is willing to buy Festool items but doesn't think they are automatically worth their price.

I first bought a Festool Tracksaw 25 years ago, then later bought a Makita, then "upgraded" to a Festool TS55, and recently added another Makita. The Makita is 95% of a Festool TS55 that can be 60% the cost if bought on sale. It is really close to the Festool if you are using it for sheet goods and the riving knife on the Festool is irrelevant.

A Fein Vac is superior to Festool Vacs in some ways and inferior in others. They are quieter and much cheaper if bought on sale but don't store nearly as efficiently. The Festool systainers mount on top, which helps the storage efficiency. I have a Festool Midi with systainers mounted on top and strapped into the engine room of a yacht where space is at a premium. I have 3 Fein Vacs used in shops where space is not so valuable.

I have Bosch 1590 and 1591 jigsaws as well as a Festool Trion and the Bosch is easily the equal of the Festool for half the price as long as you don't factor the systainer into the "value" of the Festool Jigsaw. Don't forget that Bosch makes a bunch of different Jigsaws and their mid range units are just OK, while their low end units are junk.

If you really want a Midi instead of a C26, let me know because I have a virtually new Midi and want the C26 instead. Unless you are hauling it up ladders or are much older than my 60 years, I can't see the value of the Midi.

[mreza Salav]

I have a fair number of Festool products and have used some of their other tools that I don't have (returned a few as well). Some of their tools are unique and excellent (like the Domino); they simply are huge time savers. Some of their tools are just about as good as the next good brand and are IMO overpriced. So do your research at what type of work you do and what you really need.

[Matt Lau]

Thanks for the tips.

It looks like the festool tracks are better compatible with other festool routers and third party adapters (like for the dewalt) than the makita rails.

I'd really like to know which tools are unique and excellent, and which ones are overpriced.

Here's my understanding (from lurking on FOG and the contractortalk forum):

domino- unique and special niche.
tracksaw- quite good. Makita is good too
Festool vac- better storage than fein, but louder, bigger, more expensive
router- mixed. I'm eying the DW611 due to it's smaller size (I'd mainly use it for inlay, bridge slotting). The op1100 is really nice too.
Jigsaw- sort of a waste of money--go bosch (I have a bosch 1580--used it once--eats 2" of plywood like nobody's business. needs new bearings, poor dust control options)
Planex- no clue. Some contractors swear by it for weird situations like thicknessing a rafter--while in the roof.
drill--consensus seems to say it's a great saw, but could be bought for 1/4 the price elsewhere. I'm looking at Bosch or Milwaukee.

That it?

Regarding the Festool MIDI, I'd have to factor in shipping, and whether I can justify it.
At earliest, I'd have to wait until October (my birthday) or December.
Likely, I'll try to make an enclosure for my Fein and make do.

I'm typing this from a hotel room in Chicago.
The International Congress of Oral Implantology is full of quirky people like myself, and it's pretty great.
It's a lot of $$$, but I think that I'll be a better dentist when I return.

-Matt