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Thread: Why don't you use ceramic stones?

  1. #136
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    Today I took my ceramic stones down and resharpened my antique pocket knife with the largest blade I remade out of ball bearing steel(52100). I got it exceedingly sharp as usual!! I
    am well satisfied with my set of Spydercos,and my MDF strop with green chromium oxide from LV. This knife will stay sharp for weeks! This is a 3 blade whittler made in Scotland. The large 5" blade was pretty worn,but the 2 smaller blades are original and pretty hard. They will get sharp as blazes too. Scottish tools trend to be pretty severely plain looking. But,they are always the very best quality.
    Last edited by george wilson; 07-25-2016 at 6:44 PM.

  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    These days, my preferred setup is a progression of Sigma stones-400, 1000, 3000. 6000, 10000, and 13000. Under running water, each stone gives me the feel when it's done. It might be as little as ten strokes until it can go to the next stone. They cut fast enough that I don't need to worry with micro-bevels, so I just do full bevels. No back bevels at all. Often, I don't go back coarser than the 6k stone to start with. I can never feel a burr, but I do hit the backs on the edges of the 10k, and 13k stone to make sure.
    Out of curiosity are you using Select IIs? I ask because that line has a 3000 but the Power line doesn't. Also because I really like the feedback from the Select IIs.

    They dish like crazy (esp the 1K) but they really let you know what's going on. It feels wasteful to us them on anything but the very hardest steel though, as they release abrasive long before it's exhausted.

  3. #138
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    stonerack.jpgMostly Powers. The 10k I forgot which it is because it came off the classifieds here a good while back. The 3k is actually not a Sigma, but a Suehiro New Cerax. Stuart was out of 2 or 3k Sigma's, and I decided to try this stone to fill the gap I had between the 1k and 6k.

    That 3k works okay in its spot, but it has an attached base that's a little bit of an aggravation. It's designed to produce a slurry, which can end up functioning like a finer stone, but I use it under running water, and just want it to quicken the gap between the 1k and 6k, which it does just fine.

    Video coming shortly I hope...just a lot of things in process right now.

  4. #139
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    I have Sigma Select II's, including the 3000, which I purchased to fill an odd gap I had, too odd and boring to explain. I have not used them in over a year though. I just reread this older classic thread.

    I am now a fan of "grinding" with CBN wheels, hollow grinds for plane blades. I am very happy with the "Spyderco system" for "honing" as George and David discussed in this thread quite a while ago. Like George I finish with LV green compound on an MDF block. I have Eze Lap diamond plates but it is rare that I use them.

    The two major advantages for me are: 1) I can touch up my blades PDQ, with no water or sharpening station required. My sharpening station is a grinder with CBN wheels. 2) The other major advantage is the conservation of: the steel in my blades and my personal time. I am maintaining a very small edge, usually at the edge of a minimal hollow grind, so the effort is usually miniscule. I find it much easier to maintain that smaller edge without abrading away large amounts of steel. As someone mentioned in another thread, sharpening is now a brief interlude in my work not a whole other process that takes me away from woodworking.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-26-2016 at 1:13 PM.

  5. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    stonerack.jpgMostly Powers. The 10k I forgot which it is because it came off the classifieds here a good while back. The 3k is actually not a Sigma, but a Suehiro New Cerax. Stuart was out of 2 or 3k Sigma's, and I decided to try this stone to fill the gap I had between the 1k and 6k.

    That 3k works okay in its spot, but it has an attached base that's a little bit of an aggravation. It's designed to produce a slurry, which can end up functioning like a finer stone, but I use it under running water, and just want it to quicken the gap between the 1k and 6k, which it does just fine.

    Video coming shortly I hope...just a lot of things in process right now.
    Makes sense.

    Along the same lines, I think that the mid-grit Beston/Bester/Imanishi ceramic water stones (700-1000-1200-2000) also provide nice feedback. They're a little softer and more "tactile" than the Sigma Powers, but nowhere near as soft as the Select IIs.

    I used to be a "hard" water stone fanatic but have come to prefer to feel how the stone is cutting (a note to David and Stanley: Yes, I realize that sort of thinking usually ends with JNats, but I also like medium-alloy steels). If I want something "unyielding" for flattening I use diamond paste on steel.

  6. #141
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    can't FEEL the ceramic stone cutting???? I look at the amount of gray particles coming off the edge while I'm sharpening. That tells me how fast the stone is cutting. Easily seen on the white stones.

    I too very much like to use up as little steel on my tools as possible while sharpening. Ceramics do that just fine.
    Last edited by george wilson; 07-26-2016 at 1:40 PM.

  7. #142
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    I would think we could agree that "feel" is a subjective topic at best. In my case, the feel of the two edges of a minimally hollow ground blade registering solidly against a hard stone's surface is a feeling I find very helpful when sharpening by hand.

    In the case of the softer water stones, which typically work with a slurry and water, I have trouble with stiction which is personified by the slurry. Stiction has a habit of causing me to run the edges of my blades into the surface of the stones, marring the stones and not doing much to improve the edges either. As is usually the case YMMV.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-26-2016 at 1:54 PM.

  8. #143
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    Mike,perhaps you have a hidden talent as a STONE carver!! Michaelangelo LOOK OUT!!!

  9. #144
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    Good one George! I have been thinking about taking up wood carving, maybe I will just move up to stone.

  10. #145
    I like Spyderco's well enough for hollow ground stuff, but I find them a bit lacking for japanese chisels. They do not seem to cut/polish fast enough. Definitely less mess than waterstones though, even the splash type waterstones seem to be messy. It is all fun though. Least messy grinding is 600 grit CBN on tormek. I have a tiny bit of light 3in1 oil on the CBN and swarf does not seem to go all over. 600 grit CBN also is fast enough for a quick refresh of the hollow.

  11. #146
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    What do ceramic stones lack on Japanese chisels? Ceramics will cut steels that no other stone I tried will sharpen. I could not get a D2 knife I made quite razor sharp until I got my Spyderco ceramic stones. The Spydercos brought the edge right up.

    Ceramics will even sharpen carbide lathe bits.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    can't FEEL the ceramic stone cutting???? I look at the amount of gray particles coming off the edge while I'm sharpening. That tells me how fast the stone is cutting. Easily seen on the white stones.

    I too very much like to use up as little steel on my tools as possible while sharpening. Ceramics do that just fine.
    Sir George: how quickly do your stones load up with swarf? When I used round rods to sharpen knives they generally required cleaning after each knife. Pretty much the same with the Spyderco triangular. I now have a 1" x 4" that will do several knives before needing cleaning. How do you clean your stones?

    Thanks, Curt

  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    What do ceramic stones lack on Japanese chisels? Ceramics will cut steels that no other stone I tried will sharpen. I could not get a D2 knife I made quite razor sharp until I got my Spyderco ceramic stones. The Spydercos brought the edge right up.

    Ceramics will even sharpen carbide lathe bits.
    "No other stone" seems hyperbolic - there's nothing magical about the abrasive in Spyderco stones. It's simply a toughened aluminum oxide ceramic ("alumina ceramic"), and as such quite inferior to natural diamond, synthetic diamond, and CBN. It's also softer than SiC, though much tougher and more fracture-resistant.

    For that matter Alumina ceramic won't cut anything that the abrasive in a modern top-quality Aluminum-Oxide waterstone wouldn't cut, though its greater toughness means that it can use a harder binder and doesn't need [as much] flattening.

    It's leaps and bounds better than SiOx though.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 07-26-2016 at 5:55 PM.

  14. #149
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    The feel that I depend on is not that a stone is cutting, but when it's done all the benefit it can do. I don't know that I could teach anyone else. I spent a lot of time when I was younger trying to figure sharpening out, and somehow that's what I ended up with. I don't get it with really hard stones, except for the Translucent Arkansas that taught it to me.

    I never feel for a wire edge as a judge. Whenever I have felt for one, it's not there, unless I'm doing some medium to light reshaping with the X-coarse diamond plate-when it doesn't need enough to hit the CBN wheel.

  15. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    What do ceramic stones lack on Japanese chisels? Ceramics will cut steels that no other stone I tried will sharpen. I could not get a D2 knife I made quite razor sharp until I got my Spyderco ceramic stones. The Spydercos brought the edge right up.

    Ceramics will even sharpen carbide lathe bits.
    They definitely cut the steel, but it is much slower than say 1200 Sigma something stone that I actually use with oil which supposedly slows it down. I just had some microchips in one japanese chisel and medium brown was not doing much help, but 1200 sigma took care of them pretty fast, maybe 20 strokes.
    Anyways I actually use the spydercos quite often, probably because of this post, but mostly with PMV11 steel. For regular steel I like oilstones better, they just feel more appropriate. I like all my stones and I have many of them

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