Why don't you use ceramic stones?

[bridger berdel]

The coticule I reserve for straights, but the belgian blue I really enjoy as a finishing stone for chisels and planes.

[Harold Burrell]

My old set of water stones will last forever because I never use them with all their muddy mess.

Are you kidding? That is why I use them. I LOVE the muddy mess.

Why...sometimes I do my sharpening while sitting in a puddle in my driveway. It's that whole 2nd childhood thing, I guess...

[george wilson]

Pretty much my thoughts too,Stan.

[David Weaver]

I got a response from stu. He said they are (thedual stones) extremely hard and he recommends people get instead a version that has a hard and soft side (the gokumyo ryo) so that if you can't tolerate the hard stone (which does cut fairly slow compared to a friable stone, as do the spydercos), you still have a fast cutting surface to fall back on. (presume that takes oil out of the equation, but not many people use oil, anyway)

I do agree with him to some extent, that beginners will find the spydercos hard to deal with, especially if you need to remove a lot of wear. You can wake up the sypdercos with an atoma, though, but that does add about $80 to the cost of the package, maybe a little more.

[Chris Griggs]

I sent Chris G my spyderco UF completely broken in and glazed and I think he was probably confused about its usefulness, and maybe felt it wasn't OK to beat up the surface to speed up the cut. when they are new (iirc, the particle size is about 3 microns) they cut unbelievably fast, but that soon goes away and they settle in to what they're going to do long term.

Just saw this. Yep, exactly, it was so worn in I didn't know what to do with it. It didn't seem like it was doing anything, not even polishing...even less then a worn in HTA. In hind site should have hit it with some diamond or at least scrubbed it with some bon ami or something to get it to do a little more. Still I've been thinking about getting an 8x2 UF ever since (and maybe a brown and/or 600 grit "fine" eze lap) How aggressive is the brown...is it like a 1k water stone in aggressiveness or more like something in the 3-5k range? Am I understanding George's system correctly that you really want to raise the burr with something like a 600 grit diamond stone , bridge with the brown, before finishing with the UF?

I barely use my water stones lately. They remain my favorite way to actually hone, but in my little sinkless shop I tend not to bother to pull them out, and use my washita followed by my surgical black or HTA stones instead...which is great for my vintage planes but not ideal for my modern planes/chisel/or turning tools.

[David Weaver]

I just went down today and played with the ceramic again today. Chris, I'd say that three step is about right - three dry stones - a diamond, the brown medium and then the UF.

My UF had again gotten to that no cutting state, and even bon ami won't bring it back from that. Diamonds definitely will, but it goes nuts after diamonds. I found the chosera rub stone works well with it - it's just strong enough on the surface to clean it off and knock the glaze off. The fact that you can have that much control over what it does (from scuffing with diamonds to not cutting at all) is what makes me think it will puzzle newbies a little bit when waterstones pretty much cut the same speed all the time.

I got the sense from stu that he feels like the dual stone's hardness and slow cutting will do the same. The spydercos would drive me nuts using a guide.

As far as the brown's speed, when it's brand spanking new, it cuts fast, but it settles in and I'd call it similar speed to a 2k or 3k waterstone. If you sharpen by lifting the chisel or plane off of it's primary and work a tiny area, you could use it like that fairly well. If you're working a larger area, an ezelap 600 is a nice starting point, especially after it breaks in.

Spyderco's website said the alumina in the ceramic is 3-5 microns, which explains why they cut as mad fast as they do when they're new (I don't know if the brown is the same size, though).

With the stone as I sent to chris, I can get a sharper edge than I can with any other stone with a very heavy hand and about 30 seconds of work lifting a chisel handle a little, but it is not a practical way to use it. It's just a good way to pass a hanging hair test with a stone for entertainment. It probably makes an edge that rivals a gokumyo 20k, but the gok 20 makes that edge no matter what way you use it.

(and I'm not suggesting anyone should get a gokumyo 20k for woodworking)

I ordered an 8x2 UF already. If harold doesn't buy my 8x3 because I'm poo pooing it as being a bad stone for guides (and I think it's a horrible stone for a honing guide), I'll sell it to a razor sharpener or a knife fanatic. They are stones for a freehander where the flexibility is an asset. In my estimation, stones that remove material fast are better for guides.

[george wilson]

Yes,Chris. Use the diamond stone to create a "sharp",but ragged edge(no little bright line on the edge,which means there's a flat spot there(hope that makes sense). The brown ceramic will quickly hone off the scratches made by the diamond. The white will polish the edge and finish it up. I still like to strop a few times on my MDF strop with green CrO buffing compound on it from LV. I get an edge suitable for anything I need to do pretty efficiently.

Don't expect the white ceramic to remove much metal,though. It's too fine. Used in this little system,it works well and does what it needs to do.

Guess David beat me to the punch here.

[Chris Griggs]

Got it. Thanks Dave and George! Chosera rub stone...great idea!....I have one of those somewhere that I don't use for anything. Given that I work in a shop with no sink and use multiple steel types, sounds this really would be a convenient system for me. Thanks for the clarification.

[Steve Voigt]

Thanks for checking. I guess I should have specified "from the perspective of an oil stone user." I was interested in the idea of the fine dual stone as an alternative to a hard black ark.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I barely use my water stones lately. They remain my favorite way to actually hone, but in my little sinkless shop I tend not to bother to pull them out, and use my washita followed by my surgical black or HTA stones instead...which is great for my vintage planes but not ideal for my modern planes/chisel/or turning tools.

I feel the same way. a shop without a sink is not so water stone friendly. I thought the soakless stones would help but it's still pretty much the same minus the soak tub. I don't think I'll be selling the Chosera, but they will probably see very limited use. funny thing is, I can get the edge I want with these "slow cutting stones" faster than I would with water stones.

[Mike Holbrook]

Could a Veritas Steel Honing Plate with diamond dust or paste be used instead of a ezlap 600 for the coarser work? The steel plate and paste might not wear down like manufactured diamond plates can. I bought a Dia-Flat Lapping Plate and I am concerned that I may have "dulled" it considerably repairing a used Japanese chisel. It might be nice to have a 400-600 devise that would be as durable as the Spyderco ceramic stones. Unfortunately most of the diamond pastes I find seem to be 6,3 & 1 microns which I believe are more for final honing like the Spyderco ceramic stones.

Is a Japanese Nagura stone similar to a Chosera? Will either work to rough and maybe flatten Spydercos? Amazon offers a few of each. Some of the descriptions reveal the grit in the stones and some just suggest that the stone is for leveling and roughing other stones. I would be more comfortable with some idea about what grit size I was using to rough or flatten the Spyderco brown & white stones.

[Kees Heiden]

Would these "Missarkastones" be the same as the Spiderco's? http://www.fine-tools.com/kuns.htm
I don't think Spiderco is available overhere.

I have two slipstones from them, but don't use them very much. I seem to prefer my vintage oilstone slips for gouges.

[David Weaver]

Something different. I haven't seen those before, but they look like sintered aluminum oxide and pink grinding wheel material on one side and silicon carbide on the other in a more traditional type of crystolon stone.

There was also a type of stone that was sold in europe called arkeram, which was either bonded or sintered novaculite. I think it's still sold.

The spyderco stones are something completely different - they do have a binder, and the binder is extremely hard.

[David Weaver]

Could a Veritas Steel Honing Plate with diamond dust or paste be used instead of a ezlap 600 for the coarser work? The steel plate and paste might not wear down like manufactured diamond plates can. I bought a Dia-Flat Lapping Plate and I am concerned that I may have "dulled" it considerably repairing a used Japanese chisel. It might be nice to have a 400-600 devise that would be as durable as the Spyderco ceramic stones. Unfortunately most of the diamond pastes I find seem to be 6,3 & 1 microns which I believe are more for final honing like the Spyderco ceramic stones.

Is a Japanese Nagura stone similar to a Chosera? Will either work to rough and maybe flatten Spydercos? Amazon offers a few of each. Some of the descriptions reveal the grit in the stones and some just suggest that the stone is for leveling and roughing other stones. I would be more comfortable with some idea about what grit size I was using to rough or flatten the Spyderco brown & white stones.

I don't love loose diamonds in medium fineness, because they present a contamination problem on fine stones and they don't break down.

ezelaps break in quickly, but last a long time, and on amazon are inexpensive (well usually. They were $34 for a while for the 600,then they went way up, went back to $34 and are now $48. I don't know why they are screwing us around with them selling them almost at their suggested retail, which is only $51 - something you'd expect to find only at a brick and mortar woodworking supply store).

Chosera's nagura is a 600 grit waterstone, more coarse and different than most synthetic naguras. They are cheap (10 bucks in europe), but for some reason are not offered individually here.

[Mike Holbrook]

David et al: EZE-Lap 3x8, 600 grit- vs 400x Atoma (Veritas is what I was looking at though I know Stu has 400 & 600 too)- Vs DiaSharp 3x8, 600 grit- vs Sigma Power Select II Ceramic 240X (at LV) or Sigma PSII 400X from Stu?

At current prices the Eze-Lap, DiaSharp and Sigma Power Select II "stones" are close enough in price that I would not consider the price difference in any decision between them. The Atoma is around twice as much, I suspect the design of the Atoma surface may make a rougher finish but last substantially longer.

Maybe I should say I have a Sigma Power, 3F Carbon- 700, which is why I had been leaning toward a 400 or 240 diamond plate or Select II. I suspect that a 600grit diamond plate will cut substantially faster than the Sigma 700 though. I have a small 2nd kitchen in the room next to my shop area, so water is fairly convenient. Of course part of the attraction of the "dry" stones is the reduction in prep, cleaning and need for water.