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Thread: Four shop built back saws

  1. #1
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    Four shop built back saws

    Tempted by Ron Bontz’s offer of “extra” saw parts at reasonable price, I acquires saw plates and slottedbrass packs for four back saws. This is my third generationof shop built back saws. I was motivated to keep trying because I reallystruggled with trying to achieve a combination of straight plates/tooth line (particularwith some of the thinner/longer saw plates) and totes I was happy with. My first generation were pretty much worthless. The second generation worked, and felt comfortable, but the tooth lines weren’t 100% straight, which just sort of ticked me off, hence this latest effort.

    Here’s some pictures of the wood I was considering using for the totes.

    DSC_0170.jpg

    Ended up using from bottom to the top: Mexican Kingwood (superhard – never again!), Claro walnut (I would kill to have some pieces of this big enough for furniture – awesome to work with hand tools and to my eye very attractive), Brazilian rosewood and Spaulted Tamarind (which I picked pretty much because I like the look, even though the strength/density isn’t really suited for tool handles).

    DSC_0209.jpg

    The two larger saws on the bottom are .025” thick saw plate, which was much easier to keep straight, 18”and 16”long plates.

    DSC_0210.jpgDSC_0211.jpg



    The smaller two on the top are 14 “ long plates, .018” thick. I go with light-colored wood for ripsaws totes and darker wood for crosscut – helps me keep them straight on thebench.

    DSC_0213.jpgDSC_0214.jpgDSC_0215.jpg


    On this third attempt, I did succeed in getting 100% straight tooth lines (I didn’t take the time to get agood picture) and the saws feel and work fine.

    I’ve restored lots of old hand tools and built my share of shop built tools. Compared to the amount of time it takes to tune-up an old Stanley steel bench plane, building these backsaws was a lot harder and took much longer. It took a lot of time and fettling; assembling the saws, checking the fit of the mortice and slot for the plate, disassembling adjusting and reassembling etc. I think it’s worthwhile to restore some vintage tools and build others. FWIW, if I were just getting started with hand tools, based on the time and effort it has taken me, I would’ve just bought joinery saws.

    There are lots of tutorials from folks much more knowledgeable than me about building saws and I wouldn’t pretend to tell anyone else “the best way” to do it. FWIW, here are a couple suggestions that worked for me that I learned primarily by screwing it up, usually morethan once:

    ·
    When initially sawing out the outline of the tote, it was easier for me to get the tight angles in the profiles I was looking for using a coping saw, versus a bandsaw.

    ·
    There is no substitute for quality rasps in shaping saw handles! I have an old vintage Nicholson, handstitch Auriou, and a machine stitched rasp from TFWW, and I also used the Asian made floats (can’t remember their names).If I had it to do over again, I would bite the bullet and buy the hand stitched rasps, even though their price point is typically outside therange of what I generally spend on tools. In this instance – the speed, accuracy and smooth finished surface they leave make this job a lot more fun and enjoyable, plus if I ever get around to building those cabriole legs they should come in handy.

    ·
    One of the most difficult parts of the whole process for me is accurately lining up the holes in the totes and saw plate for the saw nuts. Using the smallest diameter drill bit practical to initially locate the holesin the totes in the drill press was my best option. The larger the diameter ofthe bit you use for this; the greater the error you inject into the process when you try to accurately locate the Forstner bits to drill out the recesses for the saw nuts.

    ·
    I was able to saw the slots for the saw plates by hand with the totes clamped to the benchtop using a carefully sized spacer block to locate the kerfin the middle of the tote. Originally I sawed the slot with the same thickness as the plate I planned to install. This makes for very tight tolerances in aligning the mortice for the saw back with that slot. Now I make the slot wider than the plate I plan to install; that provides a little more “wiggle room” to keep everything straight and aligned once you tighten everything up.

    ·
    I saw the slot first, and then use the slot to register the tip of a drill bit to drill out the mortice. Clamping the tote vertically in a machinist vice on top of the drill press was the best way for me to try and keep the mortice aligned with the slot. I recommend using a drill bit smaller than the width of the mortice and paring to the final layout lines with a chisel. I think this step was the single largest source of problems with my earlier efforts; if the mortice for the back isn’t perfectly aligned with the slot for the plate bad things happen!

    ·
    Lastly, I don’t Loctite the plate into the back until after I’ve inserted them into the tote to mark and punch out the holes in the saw plate for the saw nuts. If you had a drill bit that would work in spring steel, I think dry fitting everything together and drilling the holes in the plate while it’s inserted in the tote, might help keep everything aligned. This didn’t work for me as my bits didn’t really cut the steel as much as they just burned through it.

    I punched the holes with a cheap hand punch from HF.
    I’d still don’t know how you perfectly center the punch to get the holes in the plate where you want them – I always ended up with lots of filing before the saw nuts would fit cleanly.


    These are my last shop built back saws ever! I enjoy using them, but I enjoyed woodworking more than saw making.
    For me it wasn’t worth the time and hassle of building 3 generations of these compared to ponying up the $ to buy something from one of the many fine saw makers working today that works perfectly right out-of-the-box. Just my opinion, YMMV.

    Thanks for looking,
    All the best,

    Mike



    DSC_0170.jpg

    DSC_0209.jpgDSC_0210.jpgDSC_0211.jpgDSC_0213.jpgDSC_0214.jpgDSC_0215.jpg

  2. #2
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    Mike,
    I have one of his kits and when I finish a project I have going, I will put it together.

    Can you elaborate on what you did in regard to the straight tooth line. I may be wrong, but at this point, that concerns me most.

  3. #3
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    Very nice work Mike!

  4. #4
    Well done, Mike. Saws are my least favorite things to build. I would *so* much rather restore a few old saws than build one kit.

    but when you're done with a kit, you do have a nice saw, even if the cosmetics and hassle of drilling through the spring steel are fresh in your mind.

    In my estimation, there is nothing better than air dried apple or another similar wood. Kingwood (if it's anything like the kingwood that has a very pronounced grain) is just right next to murder to work.

    This thread had the apple that I used. I've not since gotten wood like it. It's about as hard as maple, but it works like it's filled with wax - you can do anything you want with it.

    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...nother-saw-kit

    The quality of folded back kits out there went down after I did this one - you can see that MW was actually providing finished chamfered backs, they were spectacular and there is nothing remotely as good now that takes into account the proportions and the cosmetics like these.

    I would've liked to have made another 5 so I could get a good lambs tongue on one, but the handles take so long to do, almost as long as a coffin smoother or a pair of hollows and rounds, and the work isn't much fun.

    My hats off to you for trudging through so many.

  5. #5
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    Kudos, Mike. Sometimes the most rewarding journeys are those that take the most difficult route. I should know. Every thing is difficult for me. Take care.

  6. #6
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    You, sir, appear to be fearless! I always enjoy you sharing your adventures/journeys with us. Very well done Mike.
    best regards, patrick

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    Mike,
    I have one of his kits and when I finish a project I have going, I will put it together.

    Can you elaborate on what you did in regard to the straight tooth line. I may be wrong, but at this point, that concerns me most.

    hi Lowell,

    IMHO there are two central issues related to achieving a nice straight saw plate/tooth line:

    1) Ensuring that the slot in the tote for the saw plate is perfectly aligned with the mortice for the saw back in both the vertical plane and the long axis of the saw plate. If the mortice for the back is a couple degrees off-line with the slot in the tote for saw plate you will get a bend in the plate once you tighten things up. In addition, if the vertical walls of the mortice aren't aligned with the slot for the saw plate, you will get a "twist" in the saw plate where it enters the tote when the saw nuts are tightened.

    2) I have built back saws where the alignment looked good, but when I tightened the saw nuts a twist/bend was induced in the saw plate; I'm not 100% sure, but I think in some cases this can happen if one or more of the saw nuts rubs against the plate. I try and make these holes in the plate for the saw nuts slightly oversized to avoid this.


    To avoid issue #1 described above, the things that work for me are:

    * When preparing the blank you will use for the tote make sure both faces of the blank are parallel to each other and the blank is a uniformed 7/8" thick. Sometimes with dense tropical woods I've skimped on this (because they're hard to plane) and the result is it's difficult to center the slot and the holes you drill in the tote for the cyanide are not perfectly perpendicular (90°) to the show surface of the tote, and that makes it difficult to align the two recesses on either side of the tote for the flat parts of the saw nuts.

    * Two saw the slot for the saw plate so that it is perfectly centered in the tote and coplanar with the sides of the tote I've tried using a bandsaw (can be pretty scary), thin kerf, round slots saws in the drill press with mixed results.

    What's worked best for me is to clamp the tote flat on the benchtop and make a carefully thickness spacer (with double-sided tape) that centers the kerf in the tote. I saw the slot by hand by running the saw plate directly on top of the spacer. Once I got the kerf started straight and parallel I saw about halfway through like this, and then put the tote vertically in a vice to finish the rest of the slot. I try make this lot slightly wider than the saw plate. When you're finished sawing the slot, I run a piece of sandpaper back and forth through the slot to eliminate any slight irregularities that might distort the plate when everything's tightened up.

    * With the slot sawn in the tote, I dry fit the saw plate and brass back to the tote and carefully mark out the mortice directly off the saw back itself. A little bit of extra time and care with this step will save you a lot of trouble down the road. Once the mortice and holes in the tote for the saw nuts are complete, dry fit everything again and Mark the holes in the saw plate. I think it's easier to punch or drill these holes before you permanently attached the saw plate to the saw back (blue Loctite, not the permanent red Loctite).

    Once you've drilled or punched the holes in the saw plate (slightly oversize), make sure to use a fine file and sandpaper with a hard block on a flat reference surface to eliminate any "spelching" in the saw plate from creating the holes.

    Lowell, after much trial and error (heavy on the error!), these are just the things that I found that work best for me. Still, as I mentioned in my original post, I find building back saws to be a real challenge and I'm sure there are better ways to do this.

    All the best, Mike

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=Ron Bontz;2302091]Kudos, Mike. Sometimes the most rewarding journeys are those that take the most difficult route. I should know. Every thing is difficult for me. Take care.[/QUOTE]

    Hi Ron,

    Having built a few saws, several with the excellent components I got from you, I now appreciate more than ever the beautiful and functionally outstanding back saws made by you and all the other fine professional saw makers working today.

    I hope I didn't give the wrong impression – I'm a huge fan of both your finished saws and your saw components. Quality back saws that cut straight and true are some of the most important tools in my shop and I highly recommend your products.

    The intent of my original post was to share my experience in building back saws with my fellow Neanders who might be interested in doing something similar. If you're like me, shop time is precious and I have devoted quite a bit of it lately to building saws and I hope my experience is helpful. If someone is interested in building their own back saw, I would strongly encourage them to use the quality parts you provide. I'm just saying in my own personal calculus of shop time vs. challenges of the build process, vs. the finished saw; IMHO buying a finished saw from you or another professional saw maker is a good investment. Again just my experience, YMMV.


    All the best, Mike

  9. #9
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    Wow,


    I really appreciate you taking the time to write your response.

    Ron tipped me about getting a solid carbide drill bit to cut the holes in the saw plate. I think I might drill the holes in the tote on the drill press, slip the saw plate into position, and mark the saw plate for the hole centers. Then, I think I will set clamp the saw plate on a board (backing up the saw plate) to the drill press table and drill the holes. I hope that works.

  10. #10
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    When I drill the holes, I skip marking the centers and go straight to drilling the plate while it is in the handle. No (well, almost no) chance of errors that way, since the bit I use to dril the holes in the handle is the same diameter as my carbide bit.

    If you're using a spade type bit, then there's not even any need to clamp the work down. Since there are no flutes, there's nothing to grab the blade. If you are using a carbide twist bit, then clamping is a wise step.

  11. #11
    Isaac, not like I have anywhere close to the experience you have, but I do the same thing. Put the plate in the handle and drill it all as one, dropping a saw nut in each hole as it's drilled so there's no chance that there's any trouble when I get it all together.

    I don't use good quality bits like you do, though, and sometimes the fact that the HSS bits i'm using are actually ruining the temper of the steel and then moving it out means that the handle is permanently in the spot where it's drilled. Acceptable for a shop made saw, but it would be wiser just to buy a decent carbide bit like you offer.

  12. #12
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    Just a note: I actually prefer the straight flute bits, my self. They seem to hold up better for me. But more expensive. So perhaps a wash. I also assemble the tote, back, and plate together, check alignment then drill. But not all the way through. Just enough to make a nice V mark in the plate. Then I remove the plate, finish drilling the holes, and deburr the edges to prevent tear out when inserting or removing the plate from the tote. Takes a bit longer but worth it IMHO. Lastly once you have cut the plate slot and mortise, place the spine in the tote and clamp. The slots should be dead center in line. Like all things it is a learning process and no different than a piece of furniture. The whole is the sum of the parts. If one is off, so too the whole. So I hope others give it a go. Oh and Mike, No worries. I have lots more of that saw plate and brass. Take care.

  13. #13
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    Well,
    This changed my mind. I have a solid carbide spade bit that I will use. I was not sure about drilling through wood and and steel together. I appreciate Ron's comments. I need to finish the project I'm working on so I can get back to the saw.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowell holmes View Post
    I was not sure about drilling through wood and and steel together.
    Just in case you mean you are going to use the spade bit to drill through the wood...

    I learned the hard way that spade bits do not work well in wood. Drill the wood with a brad point or twist bit first.

  15. #15
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    I suspected that the spade bit was not good for wood. I will experiment before making the final holes in the tote and the saw plate.
    I prefer to use forstner bits in a drill press for wood. The reason I mentioned the carbide bit is a spade bit is that I suspected it would butcher the wood.

    I will experiment before I drill the tote and saw plate.

    Thanks for posting.

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