shaper tenoning table

[David Scheckman]

Hi, I'm thinking to upgrade my coping and tenoning setup. Has anyone used this setup?:

http://tfzje.zqejf.servertrust.com/P...e=SOCOMEC-CT90

A few questions:
How easy is it to install accurately? How big a piece could one expect to work with? Would it work for entry doors?
I'd like a sliding table shaper but haven't found one in my price range. I'd use the add-on sliding table for cabinet doors coping on a 3hp delta and move it to an SCM 110 for bigger tenons on entry or interior doors.
I use a Weaver (manual) jig, which works pretty well but not quite as rigid and accurate as I'd like. For larger stock I use a homemade sled which rides along the fence which also works pretty well but is not foolproof.
Thanks for any insight,
David

[jack forsberg]

i could use it with my power feeder and can't see it as useful if you have made a fixture for the power feeder. you have a feeder Yes?

[David Scheckman]

Sure, I have a feeder on each shaper and use them for many operations, but not for tenons or coping operations.
David

[Peter Quinn]

I haven't used it, looks very similar to the type of unit SCMI sells, says its built to handle entry door copes and sash frame copes in the literature, I'd guess that is accurate. Built for double sided cope and stick, not for integral tenons, bit light weight for that but might work if feed rate were slow. Install comes down to your machine and your machining skills. Do you know how to tap cast iron, and does the table allow it, or do you have space between ribs. Tapping cast is fairly easy. For coping on a delta I wouldn't waste my time for cabinet doors, a sled built of the miter slot will handle all the cabinet door copes you can throw at it. I built one in roughly 3hrs when I had a delta HD that did bevels up to 45 degrees, quick adjustable backer with its own clamp, hold downs, phenolic plate. I sold the shaper with it included because it was tailor made to it. I use a sliding table t-130 at work and its just overkill for cabinet door set ups, i can't imagine better results than my old shop made sled. I used to do entry door parts on it too, worked well even for bottom rails. The t-130 slider is a similar idea to the one you linked, just that its built into the table so has a larger moving piece of cast table. Not a perfect scenario, not a format type table, still requires some occasional tweaking of adjustments, handles large copes and up to medium tenoning work.

Practically speaking its a bit large at 35 7/16" for a delta HD table, would fit fine on the t-110. Price seems fair given its lineage. Ive used fence referencing sleds, works well but any crumbs on table effect fit quality negatively, so its a constant cleaning with compressed air and being very diligent to insure parts reference fence and fence/jig alignment remains tight. Not ideal but cost effective in the short run.

[J.R. Rutter]

I have the SCM version, but mounted a Ritter pneumatic cope clamp on it instead of the miter gauge/stop system. The travel is nice and smooth if you keep the bearings clean. The tolerances are good, so it is quite rigid with no play. We keep it mounted permanently on the back side of a shaper that does not use a standard fence. I would not really want to remove it and re-install it every time I used it because of calibration, but a couple of dowel pins would take care of that. Anyway, here is mine.

[Kirk Poore]

For that kind of money, you could just buy a used tenoner. That's what I did. Assuming you have space, of course.

Kirk

[David Scheckman]

Definitely no space. I'd ideally like something versatile to complement My SCMI t-110. I'm thinking wait and keep looking for a sliding table shaper preferably with a tilting arbor. Will need to be one with a smallish footprint, I'm thinking, Felder or Minimax. Then I'd have all bases covered. I guess I'll just have to be patient until the right one at the right price comes along.
Thanks,
David

[Kevin Jenness]

J.r. Rutter; how do you think your bolt-on table would do for large tenons on passage/entry doors?

David Scheckman: There is a good discussion of tenoning tables on Woodweb( http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_bas...r_Shapers.html). Sorry, I don't know how to direct link to it. At my workplace we use a Casadei fixed spindle sliding table shaper for tenoning; it has a bolt-on table on an in-table slider. It is mostly used for cope cuts, but we have tenoning discs for traditional tenoning. I have seen them listed for $3-4000. I believe you are in VT, not far from our Richmond shop. Feel free to PM me if you would like to check out our setup.

Our bolt-on table has slotted attachment holes to allow for adjustment in and out relative to the spindle. The closer to the spindle the table edge and clamping point are, the better the results. You would need at least two mounting points on a fixed table shaper for the unit you reference for stub tenons and full length tenons

[Joe Calhoon]

Kevin,
We have the old Panhans cast bolt on table. We used it for years to do door copes and smaller tenons with no issues. It does start to misbehave with long work pieces and anything over 12" wide. We also had a Casadei with built in slider for years used with a tenon plate. We ended up damaging it when clamping fixtures for other things to it and never able to get it right again. I have experienced all types of sliding table shapers and the in- table is my least favorite. They all can be made to work though and all are a compromise when used in conjunction with normal shaper operations. The pro shop really needs 2 shapers to do this effectively. In a home shop or limited space shop going back and fourth on one machine works with thought out setups.

David,
This should work on your SCM shaper but will be limited on the small shaper because of the 2" height of the bolt on table. When using a single shaper to do all using this table we had it stored right next to the shaper and could just slide it on. Ours weighs 80 lbs. The table has to be installed parallel to the fence. We just used spacer blocks for this and the table maintained square without much effort. We tapped a couple holes in the shaper table and the cross slots allowed enough adjustment for cutters 150mm to 250mm diameter. A lot of people have asked about using this table to cut tenons with the big 320mm diameter disks. When I get time I want to tap the tenon hood on the Martin and try it.

The bolt on is not used much anymore but I still like it for a lot of operations. for small and close in work I feel it is as accurate as the side mount Martin table. When used with a shaper fence it is real easy to set accurate angles. I have no experience with the new Italian table Martin is offering. The support under the cross fence may offer better handling of long pieces. On thing I like about the Panhans table is the ease of attaching chip breakers.
Joe
Dovetails with sliding table.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

The pro shop really needs 2 shapers to do this effectively.

I mispoke here. JRs solution is very clever and effective for doing cope and stick on one machine...
Joe

[David Scheckman]

Thanks for the reply's. All very helpful. I was going to check the delta to see if the 2" height of the table is a problem, I'm sure Joe, that you're right that it is. It seems like there is no one perfect solution. I wouldn't want to have the bolt-on slider on my current SCMI other then occasionally, I use it for too many things. The Delta seems too limited for many operations. Maybe a good solution would be to find a used budget SCMI or other capable simple shaper, and set it up in some way similar to JR's clever solution and have it for dedicated cope and stick and tenoning. I could keep the delta just so I could use the 3/4" cutters I have or sell them with the delta as a package. Or continue to pursue the sliding table shaper. Funny that I went over 30years without a real shaper , now I can't get enough of them.
Thanks,
David

[Kevin Jenness]

Joe,
Thanks for responding. I am curious about your comment that the bolt-on table has to be installed parallel to the stationary fence. Can you explain further? We have the fence approximately parallel and use a short stop screwed to the wooden fence plates to establish the tenon length, but don't rely on the fence for anything else in the operation. Is it because you use the full length metal fence plate as a length stop? I can see where referencing the parallel fence would be handy for setting angles as opposed to the edge of the sliding table which may not be parallel to the table travel.

[Joe Calhoon]

David,
It might work for cabinet copes on the Delta but probably not for house doors. Easy enough to check.

Kevin,
For sure does not need to be parallel to the fence but I always felt it made setup easier. If it went off the shaper square and back on with the spacer blocks it would stay square. Also easy to check for square against the fence before cutting. When we had the F115 Casadei it had wooden fences and we did that one the same way you do with the add on block screwed to the fence. To get depth we would set the fence with a couple wood hooks from table front not checking for parallel because it does not matter because the sliding table is built in and always the same. The Martin has Aigner and I did not want to tap those on the face. It is digital so easy to get correct depth.
For doing angles it needs to be parallel so you can cut a piece on a slider and just push it against the fence to get correct angle. We still use this on finger jointed segment door and window heads because odd angles are easier to set than the big side mount table.

Joe

100_0018.jpg100_1104.jpgGarniga tenon 2.jpg

[J.R. Rutter]

J.r. Rutter; how do you think your bolt-on table would do for large tenons on passage/entry doors?

It works fine until the part gets long enough to act as a lever - like more than 4 feet. The sled is pretty rigid so I don't think that deep tenons would be a problem.

[Jared Sankovich]

I have the SCM version, but mounted a Ritter pneumatic cope clamp on it instead of the miter gauge/stop system. The travel is nice and smooth if you keep the bearings clean. The tolerances are good, so it is quite rigid with no play. We keep it mounted permanently on the back side of a shaper that does not use a standard fence. I would not really want to remove it and re-install it every time I used it because of calibration, but a couple of dowel pins would take care of that. Anyway, here is mine.

Sorry in advance for the necro thread revival but this pic came up when I was searching pneumatic sleds on Google.

So many good ideas in this pic..

J.r. Did you add the front cylinder on the ritter sled? It Looks like a 1.06 or 1.25 bore?

The spring loaded front fence, lookes weaver(ish)?