Help choosing which saws to file rip to make a useful collection of saws?

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I've just started to seriously attempt to get my saws up to par. I've had a handful, most in bad shape, with a couple in good shape I've been using. I just reshaped the teeth on the worst of the bunch (the 5.5ppi) and found it isn't so scary so now I want to bring the rest back to life, creating a useful collection out of what I already have.

So, which of the following would you change to rip? If you're inspired, I'd love to also hear which angles you'd change. None are angles I chose except the 5.5 PPI and some look rather crazy to me.

I've made mostly smaller things out of hard maple and oak but now want to make some boxes and furniture out of walnut, cherry, etc. along with some smaller things out of hard tropical woods (plane bodies etc.) I've also got some large joints in douglas fir to finally finish my bench base. In other words, seems like a mix.

Hand Saws:
5.5 ppi  26.5"    8 rake    0 fleam so far (just reshaped, not sharpened)
  6 ppi  26.5"   15 rake   20 fleam
  7 ppi  26"     12 rake   15 fleam
  8 ppi  26"     20 rake   20 fleam
 10 ppi  26"     15 rake   12 fleam (only non-Disston, a craftsman)
 
Panel Saws:
  9 ppi  20"      8 rake   25 fleam
 11 ppi  20"     12 rake   30 fleam
  
Oddity:
 10 ppi  22"    Disston #341 "Special Hard Temper for Copper" - no set.

Now, I don't need a saw for copper. Could I reshape it so it is similar to the other 10 ppi, hard temper, no set saw I've read about, the 120 Acme model? I'd have to find an appropriate file. I've ground a file safe on two edges before for an old crazy project so that is an option if nothing else. Any ideas how the "hard temper" compares between the two?

Thank you! Any suggestions would be great.
Fitzhugh

[Andrae Covington]

I use a 7 ppi panel saw for ripping (the standard 26" saws are too long for me) and find it a reasonable balance of speed, control, and finish, but you may prefer the bigger teeth. I think anything less than 7 for ripping and you'll be at it for a long time. I also have a 6 ppi which would probably be more ideal except for one flaw, which is my bit of advice to offer.

The 6-point saw was almost assuredly a crosscut saw recut with larger teeth and refiled for rip. It has a noticeably thinner plate than the 7-point saw, and I found that it really wanted to kink and bend with my amateur sawing efforts if I twisted or turned my hand even slightly. I soon understood why it had a kink near the tip when it came to my shop; someone else had the same problem. The 7-point saw is stiff enough to not do that. So I recommend choosing the (relatively) thicker saw plates out of what you have for rip saws. Of course a thicker plate means a wider kerf which means more physical effort in sawing, so there's that to consider too.

Since you have a few saws to work with... every now and then while sawing a large tenon or other joinery with my large tenon saw (12 ppi rip) I have bottomed out on the sawplate back and thought "it would be nice to have a fine-tooth rip panel saw to finish this". And in that case, a thinner saw plate closer to the backsaw thickness would be better. I certainly wouldn't consider it essential, but could come in handy from time to time.

[Jim Koepke]

My current favorite rip saw is 6 ppi. One of my older saws was filed rip at 4.5 ppi. It was much more work to use and the plate snapped. For me, 6 ppi seems to set a good pace for a long rip.

My rip saws are usually filed with about 8º of rake and 0-5º fleam.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I'd file the two coarsest saws rip, one more aggressive than the other, and file one of the 7 or 8 tooth saws rip also in case you end up ripping stuff half an inch thick or a little thinner.

The rest of the saws I'd file crosscut, and if I had two with similar size teeth, I'd file one with a lot less fleam than another because of how one saw may cut well in soft wood but rasp in hardwood (the teeth seem to rasp across the top of the cut and never really get a good bite).

The hard temper saw is probably going to be a file killer. Set it aside if it is. The fact that it says no set tells you that it may not tolerate being set due to the hard temper.

[Mike Allen1010]

IMHO a good basic nest of saws for hand tool furniture making would include:

* 7-8 PPI 26" crosscut for breaking down rough stock into manageable lenghts. For these coarser pitch crosscut saws I like 12° of rake and 25° of fleam.

* 10 – 12 PPI, 26" finish crosscut saw for final dimensioning of glued up panels, furniture components etc. For these finer pitch crosscut saws I like 15° of rake and 25° of fleam. The slightly higher rake angle makes it a little easier to start the saw right on the layout line and leaves a marginally smoother finished surface than a 12° rake angle, at a nominal cost of being slightly slower.

* 26 – 28" 5 1/2 PPI rip saw for basic ripping of most furniture components. Many of the higher-end saws made by the traditional makers have a progressive pitch 5- 5 1/2 PPI at the heel and 6– 6 1/2 PPI at the toe. I find 5° of rake to be a good compromise between speed and ease of starting. If you're getting started with hand saws, 8° of rake is a little easier to start. If you can manage the extra length, the 28"rip saws do make longer rips in thicker stock a little faster/easier. It's not a big deal, but I like a tiny amount of fleam (~ 5°), particularly for big rip saws, as it makes a little easier to deal with knots and wildly wandering grain.

* 26-22", 7 PPI rip saw is nice for ripping thinner components like drawer/door parts.


In addition to some joinery saws, this kit of 4 will let you do most everything you need for typical furniture making. Just like all your other tools, it's nice to have saws that are set up specifically for a given task, which really depends on the kind of work you like to do in the would you like to use.

If you were going to add more beyond this basic kit, I would consider a couple panels saws 18 – 22" long; I like a 12 PPI crosscut and 8 -9 PPI rip saw, these are handy to be used away from the shop/saw bench, like jobsites, installations built-ins, up on the ladder etc. I don't have a table saw and do all of my sawing by hand, so for me a 28", 4 PPI rip saw comes in real handy for ripping thicker, 8/4-12/4 stock.

For larger scale yard projects, fences etc. a 6 PPI crosscut makes short work of cutting construction grade, softwood lumber – 4x4" and 6x6".

Cheers, Mike

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

This is a lot of really useful information! Thank you! Somehow I end up not remembering to submit my replies about half the time. This was one of them - my apologies, it certainly doesn't imply I didn't read and appreciate the input.

One thing I never considered was the plate thickness - I'm glad you brought that up!

Prior to posting this question I drew up a chart of what I had plus what I could find suggested on blogs in terms of size and filing approach. When I get home in a couple days I'm going to combine your various suggestions with the chart and see what rises to the top.

I broke down and had the carpet steam cleaned so I can no longer sit and sharpen blades or file saws in the living room, let alone set up my improvised portable bench and carve or work on small pojects out there. Even though the landlord is going to replace it anyhow and doesn't care I know if my partner sees me woodworking or filing metal in the livingroom instead of my shop anytime soon she'll kill me. Luckily, though, she turned me onto audiobooks - my one complaint about woodworking is I can't read while doing it, and my one complaint about reading is I can't woodwork while doing it. Filing saws is a perfect match. I can pay even better attention to something like that if listening to something and it never gets monotonous. I now know sharpening one saw doesn't take that long, but I also am learning that mostly retoothing a saw does, and doing so for 7-8 saws takes a long time. At least I'll be a novice instead of a complete virgin when it comes to sharpening saws when I finish.

Oh, about the high temper saw: The 120 Acme model also has a high temper steel and, as I recall, no set. My thinking is they may well have used the same or a similar temper for both types, just different teeth.