Something better than masking tape from HD?

[Tim Bateson]

I just don't get it??? Why use tape at ALL on wood???? Either clear coat with something like Shellac or touch on sander when done. A hand held sander is very fast and works even on small pieces.
FYI - If you are doing this for profit, all of that time spend taping and weeding is very $$$$.

[Mike Audleman]

I just don't get it??? Why use tape at ALL on wood???? Either clear coat with something like Shellac or touch on sander when done. A hand held sander is very fast and works even on small pieces.
FYI - If you are doing this for profit, all of that time spend taping and weeding is very $$$$.

Thank you Tim, for the comment and suggestion. This is a hobby for me, not a business. That said, I was using tape because I didn't know anything else to use. And sanding 50 little parts, I THOUGHT, would take MORE time than taping. I didn't realize the headache of removing the tape after the engrave and cut which is why I asked at the beginning of this thread if there was a BETTER way to do this. Thankfully, there have been several very good suggestions offered by very helpful individuals here for me to try and I intend to follow up on them in an effort to find which one works best for me. I am trying to learn better methods of doing something. Its that so wrong?

As for time taping, that only took a minute or two taping a sheet of ply. The time taking it off, however, is the point of this thread.

I honestly don't understand the backlash here when someone inquires on a better or proper method of doing something and the inherent attitude that someone new should already know the answer by default. I mean, honestly, did YOUR laser machine come with precise settings for every possible material you will ever cut or engrave? Did it explain in detail what to use to prevent smoke discoloring on every possible material you could put in the machine? Did it's manual explain in detail which tape to use, when to use that tape and when to use clear coat or what types of clear coat to use on what material? Did your router come with explicit instructions on the best possible methods of cutting dovetail joints? Did your sander come with every iteration of proper sanding techniques spelled out in the manual? Did your car come with a complete driving manual? I don't think so. Or did you find out those things by experimenting, making mistakes, and asking others if they knew better ways of accomplishing certain tasks? Hmm?


Anyway, to all those who offered constructive suggestions and solutions, thank you. I appreciate them. I look forward to trying out the different solutions.

[Bert Kemp]

Thank you Tim, for the comment and suggestion. This is a hobby for me, not a business. That said, I was using tape because I didn't know anything else to use. And sanding 50 little parts, I THOUGHT, would take MORE time than taping. I didn't realize the headache of removing the tape after the engrave and cut which is why I asked at the beginning of this thread if there was a BETTER way to do this. Thankfully, there have been several very good suggestions offered by very helpful individuals here for me to try and I intend to follow up on them in an effort to find which one works best for me. I am trying to learn better methods of doing something. Its that so wrong?

As for time taping, that only took a minute or two taping a sheet of ply. The time taking it off, however, is the point of this thread.

I honestly don't understand the backlash here when someone inquires on a better or proper method of doing something and the inherent attitude that someone new should already know the answer by default. I mean, honestly, did YOUR laser machine come with precise settings for every possible material you will ever cut or engrave? Did it explain in detail what to use to prevent smoke discoloring on every possible material you could put in the machine? Did it's manual explain in detail which tape to use, when to use that tape and when to use clear coat or what types of clear coat to use on what material? Did your router come with explicit instructions on the best possible methods of cutting dovetail joints? Did your sander come with every iteration of proper sanding techniques spelled out in the manual? Did your car come with a complete driving manual? I don't think so. Or did you find out those things by experimenting, making mistakes, and asking others if they knew better ways of accomplishing certain tasks? Hmm?


Anyway, to all those who offered constructive suggestions and solutions, thank you. I appreciate them. I look forward to trying out the different solutions.

read my lime green

[Tim Bateson]

I honestly don't understand the backlash here when someone inquires on a better or proper method of doing something and the inherent attitude that someone new should already know the answer by default.....

No backlash intended from anyone here. For every 10 people here, you'll find at least 8 different opinions. Based on experience, hear say, or just guessing. Some of us are really stuck on our opinions, others not so much so. Your job is to weed through the advice (good & bad), then find what works for you.

Also to Bert's point... the advice is free, but we all should help pay to keep this website afloat. I personally would have never made it through the 1st year without it. Seven years now, & I still depend on it.

[Chuck Stone]

I honestly don't understand the backlash

I blame it on a lack of fiber..

[Mike Audleman]

Ok, I had some time to experiment last night and I thought I would post my results and see what yall thought...

First, I went by HF and picked up a roll of wide and thin HF brand tape.
Then I headed to Home Depot and picked up some Rust-olium 2x Gloss Clear Coat spray and some HDX pine cleaner since PineSol no longer has pine oil in it (boo Clorox!).

I grabbed two scrap pieces of 3mm ply and sanded it using 240g paper and an orbital.

I masked off one section using the 3M Scotch Masking tape I had been using (from Home Depot).
I masked off another section using the HF Masking tape.
Then I clear coated one section using the Rust-olium clear coat. Allowed to dry for 10 min.

I made the same cuts in the same order on two different sheets (I only photographed one as both were virtually identical).
Here are the cuts:

There is a slight burn mark on the top of the 3m tape one. I forgot I had used default settings for the raster on this file and I had the local settings set for cutting ply, not rastering it. Stopped and restarted the job with correct settings.

As you can see the 3M and the clear coat cuts look like they have taken more smoke coloring and indeed they have. From feeling them, they are noticeably more sticky feeling than the HF tape. The HF tape appears to have not let as much smoke residue adhere to it. Again, these were cut from the exact same position in the bed. I moved the board between cuts so the airflow and dynamics should all be the same between the cuts.

After removing tape...

The 3M tape was again sticky and not that easy to remove. The HF tape was virtually identical in removal difficulty despite the fact it looks like less resin is on it.

I cleaned the top half of the clear coated item using DNA. I cleaned the bottom half with the HDX pine cleaner diluted 1:4 as recommended on the label. The water based product did indeed raise some grain as it eeked into the sidewalls of the engraving areas. The alcohol left no obvious sign it has been used.

Both taped items had a clean appearance but I could feel something was different between them and the chemical cleaned clear coated one (more than the fact they were bare wood and the other had a clear coat).

Here are the averaged cleaning times for each pair of items:
3M tape - 2:28 avg
HF tape - 2.19 avg
Clear - 10s avg

Here are some closeups..




Notice anything?

Look closer at the HF tape! It allowed smoke and resin under it along the edges where the engraving was done! The 3M tape did not. The clear coat did not.

So, here is my review synopsis of the experiment...

------

3M Masking Tape (available many locations) - This provides good protection for areas not to be engraved. No problems with smoke and resin sneaking under it. Not easy to remove. The adhesive produces a stickyish goo that combines with the resins from the wood to produce a mess to clean any small bits off. This is my #2 choice of the three.

Harbor Freight Masking tape - This at first looked like it might be better than the 3M tape. Turned out it was just as messy and difficult to remove. And had the flaw that it allowed smoke resins under it during the cutting/etching process. So, it turns out worse than the 3M tape in the end. My lest favorite at #3.

Rust-Olium 2x Gloss Clear Coat (available many locations) - If you are ok with having your item clear coated, this seems to be the best choice for protection from smoke damage. Its reasonably priced and is quick to apply. The cleanup after engraving/cutting is substantially faster by leaps and bounds than either of the two tapes. If you require bare wood, then sanding will be required to remove the clear coat but I see that stage as way less hassle than fooling with gummy tape. This is my #1 choice right now.

------

Clear coat cleaners - Water. Almost a total fail. Barely touched the resins.

HDX 1:4 diluted - Worked well but since its water based, risk of grain raising and additional drying time. Cheapest solution that actually worked. Perhaps a stronger dilution 1:2 would allow you to use less on the rag and lower the grain risk.

DNA (Denatured Alcohol) - The best of all three. Immediately removed all smoke and resin residue. Left absolutely no smell or sign it had ever been used. Zero chance of grain raising. Risk of removing some clear coats (lacquer and shellac based are good examples). Most expensive as you are using it direct 1:1 but not cost prohibitive. A little goes a long way.

------

After the experiment, I sanded and clear coated a 12x12 sheet of ply. And ran the 7x7 job....

Run time in the laser: 1:19:33.
Using the averages above, cleaning times would have been:
3M - 2.01hrs
HF - 1.8hrs (but sanding would have been required due to leakage under tape)
Clear - 8.2 MINUTES (ok, a little more due to handling of liquid and rags)

Around 2hrs cleaning! Yea, THAT it why I started this thread and asked if there was anything better!

Even with the additional 10min clear coat drying time before cutting/engraving, I am nearly 2 HOURS ahead!

What does the about 10 seconds wiping get ya?

Right - Uncleaned, right from cutter
Left - 10sec of cleaning with DNA

As a result of this experiment, my choice of best performer is clear coating and using DNA as a cleaner. Its probably the most expensive in terms of materials use, but in the realm of ease of use and speed, its a total winner hands down. And it cuts the PER ITEM cleaning time from about 2.5 minutes down to 10 seconds! Clear coat's cost of materials clearly provides labor and time advantages.

I could now with the new shorter cleaning time, actually keep the laser cutter running jobs back to back. I could clean the prior job, throw another clear coat on them, sand and clear coat both sides of a new 12x12 sheet in less time than it takes to run the job in the cutter. And still have a nice half hour break while the job runs and the clear coats dry

Things I didn't try but may well eventually:
Dee's dish soap idea
Plastic razor blades (didn't have them at two auto shops I stopped at between HF and HD yesterday)
Additional types/brands of clear coat spray.

[David Somers]

Fun stuff Mike!! Thanks for such a good write up!

I need to pop a note to Ray and Carole at Rabbit and will let them know about your experience with the HF tape.

Dave

[Bill George]

Mike I find Krylon brand spray to dry much faster than anything RustOleum. In fact I am now using up a couple of cans of Automotive clear coat and it works great.

[Mike Null]

Mike

Nice tutorial! Now if you need to color fill those at some time just spray more of your clear coat into the engraved areas first.

[Mike Audleman]

Fun stuff Mike!! Thanks for such a good write up!

I need to pop a note to Ray and Carole at Rabbit and will let them know about your experience with the HF tape.

Dave

Welcome. I have said all along that I would report back when I had some concrete results.

The difference between the tape is virtually non-existent. Yes, the HF tape was slightly faster to remove. Slightly. But with the creep under it which would require additional time to remove/clean, its advantage is completely stripped away and actually would become more of a time sucking project.

Both tapes were applied the same. Both were smoothed and bubbles removed. Both seemed to adhere the same to the wood. And both sheets experienced the same results. So I must conclude that it wasn't anything I did different.

I had wanted the parts to be bare wood. But I am simply not willing to spend hour(s) peeling tape to get that result. I am ok with them being clear coated. More than ok


This little (or it was little) project turned into something way more than I had expected. I thought I would run 50-100 or so of these and hand them out as prizes at the picnic this weekend. When I showed them to the club president, she was ecstatic about them and insisted I let her steal a couple. She also said once the kids started getting their hands on them, the parents and other adults were going to be wanting them. She highly suggested I keep them hidden or make more and sell them! Her suggestion was about $1. I said how about $2 and the club gets a buck. She said that works.

So, here is my plan...
Each as far as materials go, costs <25c to produce (includes wood, DNA, clear coat, and rings). Total shop time for a set of 49 is about an hour and a half, most of that is sitting watching paint dry or a laser head zigging back and forth. Not actual work. Maybe 15min of actual work, including putting the rings on. The rings are from Michael's. Yes they are expensive and account for almost 3/4 of the total cost. If I had time, I am sure I could find the rings cheaper in bulk online but not in time for this coming weekend. I do have time for later events such as our deer sight-in in the fall as well as our winter annual meeting, both of which have huge turnouts of members and non-members wanting to join are not for several months from now.

For the future batches, I can reduce the expense further by locating a cheaper source for the rings. Short term, I am stuck at 25 a piece. I can further reduce the cost by alternate sources for the plywood. For ease, I was using the 12x12 sheets. $2.30 ea. The 12x24 sheets are $3.40 ea (local Menards) so I am down to $1.70 a batch if I cut those in half or make up a file to use the 12x24 sheets. Thats still buying locally. If I go for the 5x5 sheets I found locally, $15.60 for a sheet works out to $0.62 for a 12x12. So right there I am down from $2.20 to $0.62 per batch. If I get them from Michael here on the forums, it works out to approx $1.03 a 12x12 sheet (including shipping).

I figured maybe sell them for two bucks. Donate one buck to the club from each. I still make 75c off each one based on the current 25c per on materials. I sell 16 and I have paid for the materials for each batch of 49. That leaves the next 33 as pure profit. From each batch, the club gets $49. I take home $36.75 (after material costs). Not too shabby for a hobby

Fun stuff Mike!! Thanks for such a good write up!

I need to pop a note to Ray and Carole at Rabbit and will let them know about your experience with the HF tape.

Dave

As noted, I want to experiment with different clear coats, Krylon being one of them. Deft, and Formbys also on the list. I just grabbed the cheapest one on the shelf at Home Depot, think it was bout $3 a can. I am sure there are cheaper ones elsewhere, and I want to give those a go too.

[Mike Audleman]

Mike

Nice tutorial! Now if you need to color fill those at some time just spray more of your clear coat into the engraved areas first.

Not to derail my own thread...how do you color fill? I mean whats the general process? I had thought they might look cool inked somehow but I don't have the foggiest idea how. I tried spray painting while the tape was on, but it bled under and into the wood. Didn't think about clear coat first.

[David Somers]

Hey Mike!

If you do this search in Google you will get a slug of threads on the topic here in the Creek. The first few will be enough to enlighten you.

site:www.sawmillcreek.org "color fill"

It is a fun process. I do it on turned things that I have engraved by hand. And I tend to use metal powders for the infill, which get sanded and buffed down to a gloss and looks like solid metal with a slight brushed finish. Fun process. Not something I would for production work of course, but still fun.

Dave

[Martin Boekers]

Here is where I get my plastic razor blades from, a couple nice holders too. I started using plastic sheet scraps, but I like these better....

http://www.miniscraper.com/Ordering.html

They are perfect for JDS Hi-Gloss Mahogany Plaques with a fill. (in my opinion one of the best buys in our market) I used to hate doing them
but with these blades and a bit of Novus fine polish they are easy-peasy....

I'd recommend sealing these key chains on both sides, this will limit the chance of warping as the are used... key chains see a bit of abuse.


Good luck with these!

[Rich Harman]

Thanks for the write up, good info!

Did you try diluting the DNA?

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Mike...I use a clear coat on mine. I will spray 2-3 coats on BOTH SIDES... lightly steel wool each side in between coats and store in Kraft paper just like we ship them in.
MAKE SURE YOU TREAT EACH SIDE EQUALLY OR IT WILL CUP!!!!

Check which clearcoat to use first. Some will yellow over time. Some turn an amber color quickly.
(Search this forum and Keith had a good post about this some time ago.)

This method works EXCELLENT!!!! I even made the mistake one time of leaving a key-chain, I made, in my short's pocket. It made it through the washer and dryer without any issues. No swelling, no bleed. Nothing changed.