What Am I doing wrong? I use to sharp and get a decent edge.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Hi,

I have not posted for years, but I alway read all the postings.

I read recently about what is "sharp", all comments and suggestions. Well, I decided to go a polish my skills, pun intended.

I have always sharp my chisels and planes by hand. I have a Tormek, but I never liked the hollow bevel.

My Veritas Low angle Jack plane was having problem, it was not able to plane full shavings, it was like jumping a little bit. It was time for sharpening.

I decided to start from scratch and flat the back ( I did that, long time ago. It was not a great job, so I used the rule trick to get a small area to be flat until now.)
I started flattening the back with my coarser diamond plate, I had hard time removing the small flat area that the "rule trick" leaves.
I had to do it to get it completely flat. I did that (I suppose I did it.)

I went to all the other steps, coarse, fine diamond, then Norton water stones 1K, 4K, 8K, green compound and leather. I flatten my stones very often, so they were flat.
I thought it was flat, but It wasn't. I sharped the bevel and went to plane.
It was worse that before sharpening. I know what happen the two sides didn't meet at 0 degrees. It was like planning with a screwdriver. You know what I mean the bevel and back didn't meet.

I tried to fix it and I started again, using my granite block and sand paper for the back and bevel. I felt the burr since the coarse sandpaper. It got smaller and smaller with the finer grit. I reached the 8K, and the burr was almost non existent. I could feel it, but it was tiny.
I went to plane and again, the plane is not right.

I am stuck, I don't know what to do. I am not new to sharpening, doing it for several years now. I cannot understand what I am doing wrong now.
I didn't want to use the David Charlesworth "rule trick" so I wanted to have a mirror finish on my plane blade, but I screw it out. You might ask why? well because I wanted to have a mirror finish not other reason.

My only option now is to go to the Tormek and use the rule trick, unless any of you guys have a suggestion.

A little help needed here.

[Jim Koepke]

Fidel,

I am guessing you are not in the Pacific Northwest. If you are maybe we can get together to see if together we can figure out the problem.

I do not use the 'ruler trick.' I do sometimes see a wear bevel on the back that is like the 'ruler trick.' Usually it is easier to grind a new bevel past the wear area than it is to flatten the back to the point of getting rid of the wear bevel. My suspicion is any back bevel is easier to eliminate with more work not the regular bevel.

My experience with bevel up planes isn't as extensive as many other folks here so maybe they have other ideas. In my experience, when a bevel up plane is sharp it has more of a tendency to pull into the work instead of hopping out of the cut. To me that sounds like a rounded edge or not enough relief clearance on the underside of the blade.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Nothing wrong with a hollow grind and the ruler trick. If it gets you sharp, then it gets you sharp.

My suggestion is if you don't want to do those things, work the back of the iron until it builds a wire edge on the bevel side - as in use something coarse, and then work through back flatness again.

You can literally have a coarse back of the iron if the bevel side is sharp enough and still have a decent working edge, so I think it's that somehow the finest grit isn't getting all the way to the edge, OR the wire edge is somehow hanging on there.

One trick I like to do in general (just for visual satisfaction) is strop my irons on a piece of smooth clean leather. If the edge is refined, the leather will not show any marks. If the edge isn't refined or the wire edge is still hanging on, the leather will show scratches, but leather being leather, as soon as the edge is good, the next strop of the iron over the leather reveals a smooth surface again. If the iron doesn't mark the leather, I have a good sharp edge. If it does, I don't.

[Lonnie Gallaher]

First off I would get a sharpening jig and learn to use it. There is no shame in sharpening with a jig nor conversely is there any sense of pride in sharpening by hand. The important thing is be able to sharpen so that you can cut wood. The mirror shine is just a product of that sharpness.

Some observations. The Veritas blade should come flat. It should need only minor "flattening". To remove the "ruler back bevel" the primary bevel should be re-established until the "ruler bevel" is gone. The back should not be "flattened" until the micro bevel is remove. This only makes the blade thinner and could possibly cause problems with bedding the blade to the plane body.

[Jim Matthews]

Pictures, please.

Use a "Sharpie" marker or some sort of dye on the back of the blade,
and check with your finest stone for flat.

If you mark the iron, and apply it to the stone - any remaining marks
are out of the plane you're attempting to create on the steel.

You did this before with some skill.
You can do it again.

[Fidel Fernandez]

Well, I am glad to inform that I fixed the problem. I didn't learn a new skill, I went back to my old knowledge.
The rule trick for micro bevel, and it is cutting ash and hard maple like a butter.

I don't think I will go back to learn the new skill. I handle this pretty good and I don't want to mess with what I know.

[Jim Koepke]

Well, I am glad to inform that I fixed the problem. I didn't learn a new skill, I went back to my old knowledge.
The rule trick for micro bevel, and it is cutting ash and hard maple like a butter.

I don't think I will go back to learn the new skill. I handle this pretty good and I don't want to mess with what I know.

Some times the old ways are old because they always work.

My own preference is to keep it simple when it comes to sharpening.

jtk

[David Weaver]

Well, I am glad to inform that I fixed the problem. I didn't learn a new skill, I went back to my old knowledge.
The rule trick for micro bevel, and it is cutting ash and hard maple like a butter.

I don't think I will go back to learn the new skill. I handle this pretty good and I don't want to mess with what I know.

Do what works. Charlesworth's method is a good one, and one that is sparing on the stones.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Do what works. Charlesworth's method is a good one, and one that is sparing on the stones.

I like it…anything that spares expensive stones is good…provided it leaves a great surface on the wood.

[David Weaver]

I like it…anything that spares expensive stones is good…provided it leaves a great surface on the wood.

It was the first method I ever used. First edge I ever sharpened was ideal. It's hard to complain about it. Every person who has tried it that I know gets a great edge using it, too, and it provides a final bevel > 35 degrees total, so no chipping of the edge in a finish smoother.

I drew some heat a while ago for saying that if most people were honest, they'd admit that they get a better edge with a microbevel and ruler trick, and ...well, some people don't like to admit that.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I always sharp by hand without a jig and this time I tried to use one. It doesn't matter how long I sharp, my edge won't be the same as when I do it free hand.

I know with a jig consistency is the key. I will get the same degree all the time. My problem is never sharp enough. I spend half an hour doing it and going nowhere.

I just switched free hand, lateral as I always do it and it is pretty sharp.

It should be the other way around, but I will never learn how to use the jig. The bevel is flat against the stone, but it doesn't matter. I won't get it sharp.

[Winton Applegate]

The bevel is flat against the stone

Listen to David and adjust the jig to produce a micro bevel a degree or two steeper than the main bevel.
You have to use a coarse enough stone to get the bur then progressively finer stones to polish the micro bevel and to remove the bur.

As far as the ruler trick it makes me twitch just thinking about it but it is a place to start if one is unwilling to flatten the back near the edge and pay close attention to taking the bevel back past the wear bevel / dubbed area.

I recommend some fairly high magnification to see the wear bevel and the polish at the edge to be sure you are getting all the way to the edge with each stone.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I found what my problem was all this weekend. I am use to sharp free hand and with the inexpensive jig, the one that cost about 10 to 15 dollars. I hope you know what I am talking about.

I have my own stops to have the same degree for my blades with this small jig. I bought the Veritas Sharpening system to help with the skew blades. I followed the instructions that came with the Veritas jig, push the blade all the way to register the right angle. I did that and the blade was resting fully supported at the bevel. The problem was when I tried to tight the jig. You have to push the jig all the way so it register the angle from the blade. When you tight the jig, it moves a little. I didn't notice that.
In other words I was sharpening the back of the bevel. I never touched the edge (front of the bevel).

I notice that when I was setting the blade of my Lie-Nielsen 7 ½ jointer plane. This plane is an old one, this one doesn't have the new mouth that can be adjusted. It is a fix opening. I noticed the blade got very close to the end of the mouth, leaving at the most 1/16 to clear the shavings. I could tell the angle has changed drastically.

I don't know if it is my limit experience using jigs or what.

[Jim Matthews]

It's a common mistake, I have made it myself.

Use a Sharpie marker, or something similar to darken the bevel before sharpening.
When you make a few strokes, it will be clear where you contact the stone.
(That part of the bevel will be bright, by comparison.)

I do this when sharpening handsaws, which makes the teeth I have yet to sharpen, obvious.

sharpie.jpg