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Thread: How to reduce suction on waterstones?

  1. #1
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    How to reduce suction on waterstones?

    I've had lots of airtime and help recently, but here goes again.

    It's becoming clear that wider flat backed blades (plane blades, wide western chisels) develop quite a lot of suction on waterstones once they truly are flat (on Shapton professionals in this case) - far more so than hollow backed Japanese chisels. To the point where a double sided tape attached block of wood as a handle is advisable, and even then it's pretty hard work.

    Especially on the finer grits, and a bit more so on the 2,000 and 5,000 which seems to have a much harder matrix. The 1,000 and 12,000 for some reason less so. Adding more water makes quite a difference with japanese chisels, but flat backed blades seem to more or less instantly squeegee it off the stone. The problem is not sharpness, the edges produced seem fine.

    Guess I'm wondering if there's a fix, or a cause. For example might it be related to the grit of flattening stone? (400g Atoma diamond in this case) Might a nagura help for example, or some detergent in the water? (think i saw something about not using a detergent with Shaptons)
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-31-2014 at 2:11 PM.

  2. #2
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    A bit less downward pressure.
    I drag the blade from one end to the other, pivot it about ninety degrees and "drag" it back the length of the stone. Drag rather than keep it in the same position and try to push it back. Maybe that will help. You can do it quite rapidly though it sounds too slow to bother with when explaining.

    Nagura
    Nope. The ONLY use I have for a nagura, a natural nagura, is as an eraser to remove stubborn black areas from the stone (then rinse) that won't come off / out with just rinsing. I try to avoid constant dressing on the flattening stone to just clean the black stuff off when ever I can.

    The nagura slurry wil tend to negate the high polish we are trying to achieve for the fun of it.

    I would not use detergent. I find no need for it. May be good when using ark oil stones with water because they are not susceptible to the detergent.

    As far as the flattening grit size verses stiction while sharpening. I use my diamond plate 220 diamond or the huge pink ceramic flattening stone with the big slots in it for the coarser stones and leave them at that. For the fine stones, 5000, 8000, 15000 if the stone needs a fair amount of flattening I use the diamond plate to get almost perfect then rub the two closest stones together, say, the 8000 on the15,000 to refine the surfaces. Of course they are BOTH flat when I do this.
    Last edited by Winton Applegate; 08-31-2014 at 3:35 PM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
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    I recall David W. commenting many times about the Shapton pro's that the issue can be overcome by technique. Something about faster shorter strokes but I'm sure he'll respond. I have never had the joy of using Shaptons, this issue is not something all water stones have, but it seems to be related to the use of water. When I tried to get away with using my new black ark with water, it had mad suction I mean forget about putting the blade back on it because it ain't gonna work. Then I caved and used oil, not even a hint of stickiness. I'm not saying use oil on the Shapton g-d forbid, just giving an opening for someone to teach us about the properties of water and do the customary highjacking toa SMC sharpening thread...! Yeah! (It's late..)

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    Mathew,

    Any luck with detergent with the water on the black Ark?
    What kind of "oil" ? Would kerosene be enough ? I am thinking it would. I could easily imagine using a bit thicker oil and negating the cutting ability of the stone.

    Talking strictly large blade backs now.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  5. #5
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    Ran the search just now that i should have done before posting - this fairly recent thread here seems to cover just about all the bases with contributions from the main men : http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ction-question Thanks gents.

    I've been using the Charlesworth/Lie Nielsen type movement (forward and back at right angles to the long dim of the stone, allowing the blade to off by about 1in, then back about 1in in.), and it seems to develop the real grab in the second half of the stroke. Sounds like less pressure and shortening the stroke some more may help… Backing off the pressure could be a big part of it - i've been finding that the water squeegees out in a few strokes.

    So far out of fear of loss of flatness i've been flattening and rinsing the the stones under a tap pretty frequently too - maybe letting some more slurry build up will help.

    The Lee Valley blade backs are incredibly flat - all four so far have cleaned up all over with only a few minutes on the 1,000 stone.

    I got caught tonight with a 50 deg 2 1/4in wide A2 i ordered by accident with the large smoother - the bevel took a lot of grinding to get it back down to 25 deg. Working on the top of the WorkSharp does a nice job when altering chisel bevels, and when only a small amount of material needs to come off a plane bevel. It definitely doesn't have the grunt for this sort of work though - even with an 80 grit diamond disc. It required switching to the belt sander to shift most of the metal, then back to the WS for a clean up. Wasn't sure how it might work out, but the heavier blades fortunately don't build up heat quite so fast and so are not too hard to handle..



    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 08-31-2014 at 6:57 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    I recall David W. commenting many times about the Shapton pro's that the issue can be overcome by technique. Something about faster shorter strokes but I'm sure he'll respond.
    Yep, shorter strokes. Push the water up the stone with short strokes, each stroke maybe an inch or two long advancing up the stone a quarter inch a stroke and then back. That also helps the iron stay contacted with the stone instead of ending up suspended on water.

    The longer you use the stone, the better you'll use them, too. It's like anything, you'll subconsciously gravitate toward what works well.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post

    I've been using the Charlesworth/Lie Nielsen type movement (forward and back at right angles to the long dim of the stone, allowing the blade to off by about 1in, then back about 1in in.), and it seems to develop the real grab in the second half of the stroke. Sounds like less pressure and shortening the stroke some more may help… Backing off the pressure could be a big part of it - i've been finding that the water squeegees out in a few strokes.


    ian
    I don't love having the whole width of the stone overlapped with shaptons. The reason to do that with kings is because they wear hollow so quickly, but shaptons not so much so. Just work the irons with the iron 1 inch or so onto the stone on one side, and then work the other side of the stone. Once you've done a fair bit, lap the stone and check that everything is in flatness.

    You'll drive yourself nuts using charlesworth's method without a slurry on a shapton.

  8. #8
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    The Lee Valley blade backs are incredibly flat - all four so far have cleaned up all over with only a few minutes on the 1,000 stone.
    You said it brother.
    I can't tell you how thankful I am that they take the time to get it right.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
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    Better is Better.

  9. #9
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    This is my first video ever on YouTube. It was a spur of the minute thing. Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer was about to go to bed (she was to be "camera man"), I had decided not to do it yet because I did not know how and besides my woodworking tux had not come back from the cleaners . . .
    by the way it looks like I am not wearing pants in the video. I am. Black running shorts.
    Then I realized she would be gone all day at work and I had the day off and would be chomping to get this done so here we go . . . no edits . . . no woodworking tux . . . at the end you can see her legs wearing her "jimjams" as they say in England . . . all ready for bed.

    The video may take for ever to load or run. I don’t know. I couldn’t figure out how to make it a smaller file on my end. It took thirty minutes to upload to YouTube so that isn’t a good sign. Then I left it for a couple of hours waiting for it to "process". I gave up but decided to click on the address and it played.
    All I can say is good luck.

    Notes on my technique of dragging the blade the length of the stone, pivoting about 90° and dragging it back up the stone:

    • Most all of my blade back polishing had been done on Norton USA stones up to 8000 grit. There seems to be more sticktion on a Norton than on this 8000 Shapton I am using in the video.


    • Besides the higher sticktion that back and forth short movements seems to cause I don’t like pushing the blade up the stone edge first. I prefer dragging the blade along the stone edge trailing. Why ? Pushing the blade edge first is pushing the edge INTO AND AGAINST a pile of grit and so would seem to round and dull the edge. Dragging the blade with the edge trailing would tend to draw the metal to the finest possible nothingness of an edge.


    • Getting all super into it I would even go so far as to say that even while dragging the blade edge trailing if we have a bunch of slurry squirting out from under the edge even this can round and dub the edge. This is part of my reason for not wanting anything to do with intentional generation of slurry.


    • In the vid I say “ here we have a polished stone” I meant to say a polished blade.


    • The majority of the back is not polished. In fact there is another blade sitting there off camera. I could not make it generate enough sticktion to make a realistic video so I had to go get another blade with polish further up the blade.


    • Finally the rag I wipe the neoprene with is wet and well rung out. There is a trace of dampness all over under that mat to make it stick to the counter.


    Here is the
    video
    Last edited by Winton Applegate; 09-01-2014 at 3:18 AM.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    I've had lots of airtime and help recently, but here goes again.

    It's becoming clear that wider flat backed blades (plane blades, wide western chisels) develop quite a lot of suction on waterstones once they truly are flat (on Shapton professionals in this case) - far more so than hollow backed Japanese chisels. To the point where a double sided tape attached block of wood as a handle is advisable, and even then it's pretty hard work.

    Especially on the finer grits, and a bit more so on the 2,000 and 5,000 which seems to have a much harder matrix. The 1,000 and 12,000 for some reason less so. Adding more water makes quite a difference with japanese chisels, but flat backed blades seem to more or less instantly squeegee it off the stone. The problem is not sharpness, the edges produced seem fine.

    Guess I'm wondering if there's a fix, or a cause. For example might it be related to the grit of flattening stone? (400g Atoma diamond in this case) Might a nagura help for example, or some detergent in the water? (think i saw something about not using a detergent with Shaptons)
    Hi Ian

    Just add a little liquid soap to the water, and you will be fine. I've used Shapton Pros for many years and never experienced a problem doing so. Without this, stiction is a constant problem, especially with the higher grits, and this is in spite of short strokes, or whatever.

    I fine this useful also with the Sigma stones since they load up terrible easily.

    The alternative is to use LOTS and LOTS of water. Let them soak for 5 minutes before use. Although Shapton Pros are said to be low-water stones, it was very revealing just how much water Harrison Stanley (the Shapton agent in the USA) uses in his video on side sharpening.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #11
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    Thank you very much Derek, will try some liquid soap in the water too. Soap rather than detergent (Fairy Liquid is the one we get here) is very mild.

    The stones are all being soaked for about 10 minutes before use - without it they seemed to dry quickly no matter how much extra water was sprayed on.

    I wouldn't want to paint the wrong picture of the stones - they do an incredible job. I've a feeling that in this situation there's a triple whammy in play, and that my relatively high downward pressure isn't helping either. That's the incredibly flat backs of the Lee Valley BU plane blades, frequent use of the diamond plate which means that the stones themselves are staying really flat, and the relatively hard and non porous nature of the matrix/binder. Everything is fine for a short while until the blade starts to polish. I even had one stick bevel down while still in the honing guide. (it's not strictly necessary, but polishing the bevels is pretty quick, and it tidies up the wire edge after grinding the primary)

    The other 'out' is presumably David Charlesworth's ruler trick. I've so far been resisting manfully and holding it in reserve for use if a blade turned out to be badly out of flat - it'd seem a pity otherwise given how good the blade backs are...

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 09-01-2014 at 3:44 AM.

  12. #12
    Why resist? Stiction on the polishing stone was one of the main reasons for employing the ruler trick in the first place. (for all blades except chisels).

    There are many other powerful reasons which I won't bore you with now, but why polish all that metal which is doing no cutting?

    Best wishes,
    David

  13. #13
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    Get thee behind me David! (reaches for the cloves of garlic...)

    Only in this case because of a certain cussedness - and the irrational caution that it might throw up some unexpected issue on a bevel up plane. Plus the backs are polishing very easily. Aginst that there's been a few pro/con threads about the ruler trick over the years, but so far nobody seems to have landed a solid punch on it.

    The ruler even seems to bring extra benefits in the form of requiring honing of less of the bevel away when re-sharpening to cut away the rounded/worn edge/wear bevel and get back to intersecting facets/planes: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/te...he_ruler_trick
    Last edited by ian maybury; 09-01-2014 at 8:35 AM.

  14. #14
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    The other 'out' is presumably David Charlesworth's ruler trick. I've so far been resisting manfully and holding it in reserve for use if a blade turned out to be badly out of flat - it'd seem a pity otherwise given how good the blade backs are...
    Hi Ian

    The Ruler Trick (I think David has renamed this) is a much maligned technique - one either loves or hates it. I think it is BRILLIANT! So there!

    Having said that, I only use it in specific situations. Unlike Rob Cosman or Chris Schwarz (who are they again..?), I do not use it on bevel down planes. But Rob and Chris love it, there must be something in it for them. On the other hand, I can name others who froth at the mouth at the mention of The Ruler Trick .. it just goes to show that there are many ways to sharpen and just as many arguments for and against.

    For me, the RT is terrific for aged blades with unflat backs. I think that David first conceived this technique as a shortcut for such blades.

    But most of all, the Ruler Trick is useful for bevel up planes. The micro back bevel removes the wear bevel most effectively, and makes it easy to keep at bay. In the past the wear bevel was the main criticism of these planes, and the RT puts paid to that. Well done David.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winton Applegate View Post
    Mathew,

    Any luck with detergent with the water on the black Ark?
    What kind of "oil" ? Would kerosene be enough ? I am thinking it would. I could easily imagine using a bit thicker oil and negating the cutting ability of the stone.

    Talking strictly large blade backs now.
    Strictly blade backs - forget about it. no soupy water or window cleaner was even remotely good enough. they were fine with my 'hard' ark but that stone is rather porous.
    I quickly understood why they are called oil stones. saying that, I THINK (still in debate) I like a thin non sticky oil better than water anyway. I didn't try kerosene or anything like that, but my impression was that it needed something that lubricates, as water felt kinda 'dry' if that makes sense.

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