How to reduce suction on waterstones?

[David Weaver]

Hi Ian
On the other hand, I can name others who froth at the mouth at the mention of The Ruler Trick ..

I can think of only one, but the frothing occurs in copious amounts!

EDIT: I can think of another now, recalling who was offended when I mentioned that most people would get a better edge. Japanese planes for one...lots of dogma in the sharpening of the tools, but performance and speed, a ruler tricked edge with a 2 degree microbevel off of the primary would perform better and sharpen in a third of the time. It's one of the things that keeps me on the western tools (how long does it take to sharpen an iron in the middle of work, accurately, 2 minutes?). Makes me a little nutty to spend 5 minutes refreshing a japanese iron that's taken a lot of wear.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I can think of only one, but the frothing occurs in copious amounts!

EDIT: I can think of another now, recalling who was offended when I mentioned that most people would get a better edge. Japanese planes for one...lots of dogma in the sharpening of the tools, but performance and speed, a ruler tricked edge with a 2 degree microbevel off of the primary would perform better and sharpen in a third of the time. It's one of the things that keeps me on the western tools (how long does it take to sharpen an iron in the middle of work, accurately, 2 minutes?). Makes me a little nutty to spend 5 minutes refreshing a japanese iron that's taken a lot of wear.

I think that is really the point. a craftsman needs a system that they feel comfortable enough with that they will not hesitate at all about sharpening in the middle of work when needed, any hesitation hurts the enjoyment and work flow. I couldn't find it but that there is a post by Konrad Sauer about this very point and why he now uses O1 in his personal planes despite having used just about everything else. he also likes the PMV-11 so far, that's a new post easy to find.

[ian maybury]

Thanks again guys. Just to be clear - i've no ideological hang ups whatsoever, and have found David C's writings always to be thoroughly thought through and spot on. Exceptionally so...

The ruler trick because it's such a labour saver probably triggers the 'there's got to be a catch'/ 'no such thing as a free lunch' perspective we're so often programmed with. For my own edification i'm going to try the various alternatives we've discussed, but will walk on the dark side if needed….

[Matthew N. Masail]

Thanks again guys. Just to be clear - i've no ideological hang ups whatsoever, and have found David C's writings always to be thoroughly thought through and spot on. Exceptionally so...

The ruler trick because it's such a labour saver probably triggers the 'there's got to be a catch'/ 'no such thing as a free lunch' perspective we're so often programmed with. For my own edification i'm going to try the various alternatives we've discussed, but will walk on the dark side if needed….

It might very well be that I was not using it right, that is only a smidgen on your last stone, but for me the ruler trick produced more work in the long run, it was like purposefully dubbing my blade.

[Evan Patton]

by the way it looks like I am not wearing pants in the video. I am.

You have no idea how grateful I for one am for that!

Dragging the blade with the edge trailing would tend to draw the metal to the finest possible nothingness of an edge.

Do you think that the reason for the difference in stiction in the two techniques may be that you're lifting the back of the blade very slightly with your figure-eight-ish movement, ala the ruler trick?

P.S. Great video. Thanks!

[Matthew N. Masail]

This is my first video ever on YouTube. It was a spur of the minute thing. Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer was about to go to bed (she was to be "camera man"), I had decided not to do it yet because I did not know how and besides my woodworking tux had not come back from the cleaners . . .
by the way it looks like I am not wearing pants in the video. I am. Black running shorts.
Then I realized she would be gone all day at work and I had the day off and would be chomping to get this done so here we go . . . no edits . . . no woodworking tux . . . at the end you can see her legs wearing her "jimjams" as they say in England . . . all ready for bed.

The video may take for ever to load or run. I don’t know. I couldn’t figure out how to make it a smaller file on my end. It took thirty minutes to upload to YouTube so that isn’t a good sign. Then I left it for a couple of hours waiting for it to "process". I gave up but decided to click on the address and it played.
All I can say is good luck.

Notes on my technique of dragging the blade the length of the stone, pivoting about 90° and dragging it back up the stone:

• Most all of my blade back polishing had been done on Norton USA stones up to 8000 grit. There seems to be more sticktion on a Norton than on this 8000 Shapton I am using in the video.

• Besides the higher sticktion that back and forth short movements seems to cause I don’t like pushing the blade up the stone edge first. I prefer dragging the blade along the stone edge trailing. Why ? Pushing the blade edge first is pushing the edge INTO AND AGAINST a pile of grit and so would seem to round and dull the edge. Dragging the blade with the edge trailing would tend to draw the metal to the finest possible nothingness of an edge.

• Getting all super into it I would even go so far as to say that even while dragging the blade edge trailing if we have a bunch of slurry squirting out from under the edge even this can round and dub the edge. This is part of my reason for not wanting anything to do with intentional generation of slurry.

• In the vid I say “ here we have a polished stone” I meant to say a polished blade.

• The majority of the back is not polished. In fact there is another blade sitting there off camera. I could not make it generate enough sticktion to make a realistic video so I had to go get another blade with polish further up the blade.

• Finally the rag I wipe the neoprene with is wet and well rung out. There is a trace of dampness all over under that mat to make it stick to the counter.

Here is the video

Very well done video Winton! I like your stone holding method, it didn't move at all despite the suction which is pretty awesome (again, the water thing... ). Your method obviously work nicely, I wonder how much pressure you apply? My only other comment is that I think your trying the short stroke method wrong, that is, your moving the blade forward and back instead of sideways, and your working wayyy too much back area for how I would try it.

[ian maybury]

Just found the link to your video now Winton. +1 on how effective the neoprene sheet is. Think I'll try that - I have PVC drawer lining sheet from IKEA which is nice and robust, but it doesn't give much grip and the surface water gets under it and on to the (fortunately stainless steel clad) bench top.

The 'grab' you demonstrated coming on within a few strokes on the stone is very similar to what I've been experiencing. Dead interesting that the different movement changes the situation. I haven't been allowing it to get anything like as dry as the extreme example you demoed - unless very occasionally by accident.

I've a sneaking feeling that it's a lot about relative flatness of the surfaces, and the shape of the leading edge. That when they are dead flat and polished, and when the sharp edge leads that it more or less instantly as earlier shears/squeegees the water out from under the blade. It ends up being a bit of a struggle to maintain a wter film under the blade. I wonder if slightly rounding over the edge/corner of the blade at right angles to the cutting edge on the back face/side that's in contact with the stone so that it didn't shear the water so effectively would/would not mess up the cutting action of blade?.

Lots to play with…

ian

[David Weaver]

I think that is really the point. a craftsman needs a system that they feel comfortable enough with that they will not hesitate at all about sharpening in the middle of work when needed, any hesitation hurts the enjoyment and work flow. I couldn't find it but that there is a post by Konrad Sauer about this very point and why he now uses O1 in his personal planes despite having used just about everything else. he also likes the PMV-11 so far, that's a new post easy to find.

He must be attached to oilstones. You can do the tougher steels (tougher than PM V11) with a diamond plate and 1 micron diamonds as fast as anything else can be honed, but I don't love the way that it fails as it wears. Even though diamonds hone it fast, though, it's slow to grind.

[Matthew N. Masail]

He must be attached to oilstones. You can do the tougher steels (tougher than PM V11) with a diamond plate and 1 micron diamonds as fast as anything else can be honed, but I don't love the way that it fails as it wears. Even though diamonds hone it fast, though, it's slow to grind.

He talks about that too, the way the blade wears. He actually uses Shapton stones. I don't have much experience with that yet, but I've been using a shop made plane with a hock iron today to dimension a block of eucalyptus wood, it was sharpened with oil stones a few days ago and had already seen a little work. I did the whole block from crudly sawn to smooth and the edge just keeps going and going and going and going... I'm sure if I take it out of the plane I'd be surprised just how dull it is, be it still cuts really well a-n-d smooth for an edge that's been used so much.

[Winton Applegate]

Mathew,

From Eratosthenes 300 B.C. to Magellan and Elcano in 1522 A.D.
Some times it takes a while for things to sink in.
I wouldn't wait around for the flock to get it together.
Could be a long and tedious ordeal.
I suggest we go to the stones and let these guys . . . well . . . do what ever this is called.

[Winton Applegate]

Things were getting all "Ruler is the only way"
I just hate it when it turns into such a dead horse being beaten once again.
I do not want to start offending Derek or David Charlesworth again. That is AWFUL, AWFUL, AWFUL !

I guess that is what I am trying to say. I am just done with all the unfriendlyness.
and yet I like arguing.

OK so I didn't run the edge parallel to the long dimension of the stone. I see how that would change things. I still won't be using the ruler trick again because of the uneven wear (in the past I would call them trenches but in the sprite of detan(sp) we will call it wear . . .
that the small strokes, near the edge , here and there causes to my flat stones.

Trying to gip the blade and move it with the edge parallel to the long dimension of the stone and travel the long direction of the stone while very little of the blade overlaps the stone is even more tedious and tenuous a purchase than before.

Back in the old days when I first heard of the ruler trick I am sure the idea was to move perpendicular to the ruler across the short dimension of the stone and that is what I am particularly railing against. In fact I looked it up incase I have have been, shame for shame, wrong all these many years,. See photos.

(to the people here from the old posts doesn't it seams like centuries that we have been refighting this battle ?).

Enjoy the new version if you must.

Now I think I am conflabergasting two techniques. I think the ruler trick, sorry, The Ruler Trick, could be better at producing a flat facet if run the length of the ruler rather than perpendicular to it. But again I don't need to use it in any form.

Trying to keep slurry off the stone rather than use it to stick the ruler down with, and putting enough water on the stone, thus floating the ruler all lead to

FOR ME

a senario where the ruler slips around and off the stone. Which ever direction I choose to flail the blade.

I think David really has a great handle on this sharpening fast thing.

How ever Ha, ha,
then I read something that is the opposite of what I have found to be true. Like the short strokes is less stiction. There are a few others that don't come immediately to mind.

As we keep saying over and over YMMV.
But I don't see why they should.

PS: how much pressure am I applying. Medium. My fingers are crunched up pretty good but I ain't farting. The pop off valve signifies maximum torque setting or in this case downward force.

[ian maybury]

I suspect that when experienced people that are clearly getting good results report differing findings it's because (as David has said before) potentially small variations in technique are making a difference.

It's a perennial problem when trying to get control of processes in manufacturing. There's inevitably some magician who has evolved a ritual that works, and he'll always have an explanation why it does - but when push comes to shove it inevitably turns out that he was wrong on the rationale. Probably also that there are lots of unmentioned variables that make a big difference, but that are assumed/not discussed in the ritual. It can take a lot of experimentation to figure out what the story really is, and convert it into a form capable of transmission to others so that they can do it.

It gets quite mystical. There clearly are people that have a 'knack' for finding these routines, that are drawn straight to solutions...

On using Shapton professionals with a dash of soap in the water. This is an instruction sheet apparently translated from the Japanese from a German distributor (Dieter Schmid Tools) http://www.fine-tools.com/G-shapton.html - it suggests right down at the bottom that detergents (which may not have the same effect as a soap) can do damage (soften the matrix?) as can soaking for too long in water. In practice they may not be quite as sensitive as that - but it's definitely one to bear in mind and to go cautiously ...

ian

[Kees Heiden]

Hey I find myself in complete agreement with Winton! No use for a ruler trick in my shop either. Stiction isn't much of an issue on my Naniwa 8000. I have no trouble removing the wear with the blade flat on the stone. And finding the ruler and trying to stick it down without slipping is just one extra manipulation I could do without. It doesn't even help on vintage tools because the rustpits are too deep anyway.

I could envision how the RT would be usefull on bevelups but I don't use it for my blockplanes either.

[Adam Cruea]

I always just felt that once you got the surfaces fairly flat, they'd stick, so there's really no further point in pounding on the dead horse of flatness there. *shrug*

All I do when I sharpen in run my blade parallel to the long edge maybe for about 1/2". Just enough to knock the burr off the back. Thus far, I've had no issues with sharpness.

[david charlesworth]

Diabolical influence, floating ruler, uneven wear, can't keep track of a ruler.

This list of objections is truly inspired!

David