To strop or not to strop....

[Steve Voigt]

Please don’t limit me because you haven’t been outside the bowl.

Winton, I don't think anyone is limiting you by pointing out that stropping can work. You might be limiting yourself by insisting it doesn't.

PS: I would love to see some examples (photos) of the superior or at lest comparable results from the strop meisters. And comments on longevity of the stroppies on the difficult stuff…

I wasn't sure if you were asking for pictures of planing results, but I'll assume so. Here are a couple pics I posted recently.

photo-196.jpg photo-197.jpg

The wood is Ipe. I sharpened with two oilstones and a strop. I hope you'll agree the results are at least comparable to the bubinga you posted the other day (which, I hasten to add, is really really excellent). And not that it's a competition, but the Ipe is significantly harder and more abrasive.

Regarding longevity on "the difficult stuff", I can't really comment because I mostly use domestic hardwoods, so white oak & hard maple are the nastiest things I work on any regular basis. However, take a look at the first photo above. See the three elm boards behind the plane? There were actually 12 of those. They started at a fat 2 & 1/16, and I flattened and then thicknessed to a skinny 1 & 5/8. So, removing almost 1/2" from each board with a fore plane, a try plane set up for moderately heavy cuts, and a jointer set for fine finishing cuts. Vintage high carbon steel in two of the blades, O1 in the other. Here's a shot of the waste product, halfway through the process

photo-137.jpg

I was getting through one and a half boards before having to hone again. Now, I don't know if that compares favorably to harder steels. But I'm pretty sure that it takes me less time to do a freehand hone on two stones followed by a quick strop, than it does to use 5 stones and a jig on A2. So it all comes out in the wash. Longevity isn't really an issue. So, strop or don't. It doesn't matter, but it all works.

[george wilson]

Yes,linen was used on one side of a razor strop.

[bridger berdel]

Didn't I see a fine linen strop being sold for razors?

Seems to me there must be some fashion accessory out their
that could provide an analogous surface.

Like a Rayon necktie, frinstans.

Seatbelt nylon webbing. A few people really like it. The more common response- meh.

[David Weaver]

Didn't I see a fine linen strop being sold for razors?

Seems to me there must be some fashion accessory out their
that could provide an analogous surface.

Like a Rayon necktie, frinstans.

it's linen, but it's more like a canvas linen material. there is nothing better for maintenance of a razor (in terms of spacing out the time between honing) than the linen once per week (or whatever is deemed necessary) and horse leather every time you shave. I think one could use the same razor for a year. I've used a razor on a linen and leather combination for 6 months, and only stopped to hone because someone sent me a stone to evaluate.

Like many, most common modern strops are not so great, even some that are quite expensive. Many are pig or cow leather and the linen has been replaced by either a heavy canvas, no linen at all, a piece of suede leather, or a piece of cotton felt. None works nearly as well, and they work so poorly that you'd probably say they just don't work.

The linen serves a second purpose, which is after a razor is honed, the linen takes up any tiny bits of dirt that are left on it so that the leather stays uncontaminated. Completely different than the shop.

It takes a year or two of use of different things to figure out that the quality razors and strops were horse leather and some type of genuine linen (of the coarser persuasion, though the coarseness doesn't mean there's any abrasion or beating up of the edge).

"silk finish" vintage linens, and stuff on red imp or certifyd strops are usually the ideal type, treated with something that stiffens them a little bit. Over time, they will burnish an edge to a super bright polish with no harshness. The modern "linens" that aren't linen just don't do much good other than keep dirt away from the strop.

[ian maybury]

Hopefully this is all proving to be of some use to Mike C who posted originally.

Based on limited exposure so far the handling of wire edges seems to be an important part of the game. It'd be great to hear some views...

It seems clear that steel with a higher alloy content, or grinding a bevel on coarser grit really tend to promote their formation. Especially if steepening the bevel, and hence unavoidably grinding through the edge. The stock chrome vanadium of volume market chisels on an 80 grit disc for example results in the equivalent of an old carpet hanging from the edge - while it's relatively tiny on Japanese white steel on even a coarse 120 grit waterstone. A2 while pretty clean still seems to produce noticeably more of a wire edge than 01, and both a little bit more than the white steel.

I'm not sure what the reality is, but my suspicion is provisionally that tearing off (especially a heavy wire edge, but probably also the finer varieties too) isn't a good thing. Because it will likely take a chunk out of your edge as it departs - which unless fully honed out may remain as a nick. I seem to be doing better by gently working through finer waterstones - taking plenty of time especially on the 1,000 grit first stone after grinding to thin it as far as possible. Hard to know exactly what happens as this is going on, but it seems to get much shorter on the first, and to steadily reduce and disappear by the 12,000. (maybe each stone creates it's own wire edge?) There's perhaps an argument when cambering for similar reasons to go most of the way to a polished straight edge before dropping back to 1,000 to put the camber on...

I've no idea what's going on by the 12,000. There's no visible wire edge (maybe under a magnifier?), but on the other hand i seem to be finding as before that a light polish on a white fibre buffing disc definitely brings the (already sharp) edge up a bit more. Judged by my (well trained) thumb which i suppose might not be all that accurate either but which does seem to correlate with how blades perform.

Wonder if the 12,000 grit is in effect stropping the faces, or if a strop introduces some distinctly different metal conditioning and/or removal process? Might light stropping at this stage for example be more about polishing/smoothing the faces than cutting with grits per se? (the superfinishing topic we had going before) Maybe different stropping materials function differently too???

ian

[Winton Applegate]

It took me a while to find but this is what I was thinking of as far as stop info and it turned out to be David Barnett. David W. said he defers to David B. when things start to get weird. So there you go.

[Winton Applegate]

Steve V.,

pictures of planing results, but I'll assume so. Here are a couple pics I posted recently.

Bless you !

I was getting sick of looking at my same boring old photos.
I really enjoy seeing other peoples benches and processes and work shops.

So, removing almost 1/2" from each board with a fore plane, etc.

I am assuming you do not bandsaw. All hand tool work then ? That is A LOT OF WORK. I am going to be sure not to try to arm wrestle with you.

I would have panicked and gone all modern and band sawed off most of that waste.

I have glanced at Ip’e while learning our craft. I don’t have much info on it. Mostly an article I cut out of FWW by Jon Arno God rest his sole.
I went back and reread that article and looked around on line.
YES SIR !
Looks like you have given me examples of what I asked for.
Impressive. You have given me an education.
That is what I come here to Sawmill for even though I do more than my share of yapping.

From what I read I am afeered for your health breathing this stuff. Can even cause vision problems apparently. Sounds like you are done with ip’e for a while; going back to the maple and oak.

A side note for any one else posting miracle photos . . . a “raking” light across the surface (light source low and possibly back lit) is preferable for viewing for imperfections.

also see this

The on line info on wood seems to be a bit suspect. For instance this source for my bubinga lists the wood as not endangered :

This wood species is not listed in the CITES Appendices or on the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species.

and yet I have seen other sources say it is highly endangered. Larry Williams told me directly that bubinga is endangered and he would have nothing to do with the evil stuff.
Obviously your ip’e is a better choice, harder and not endangered, than my bubinga.
Still . . . I can’t fully put this to bed ( in my mind) until I get some ip’e and get out my strops and see for my self how it all is.

vintage high carbon and O1, two stones and a strop with no jig.
MADNESS I tell you. Madness.
Don’t tell me they are Ark stones or else I shall have to head for my fainting couch.

vintage high carbon and O1, two stones and a strop with no jig.
vintage high carbon and O1, two stones and a strop with no jig.

picture in your mind's eye I am walking off into the sun set :

mutter, mutter, mutter STROP ! mutter, mutter, mutter NO JIG !
mutter, mutter, mutter

Nah . . .

[Kees Heiden]

Bubinga, that reminds me. Have you seen the video from the Swiss planemakers Raggenbas, back in the seventies? The link has been floating around the internet for quite some time. They speak French and I don't understand much either, but it is nice to watch.

http://www.rts.ch/archives/tv/cultur...s-de-bois.html

They used a laminated block of wood to make their planes, the sole was bubinga.
Starting at 10:32 he sharpens a blade. Wonderfull to see his easy movements on the stone. I don't see a strop though. But it isn't necessarily a complete overview of the work, just an impression.

[george wilson]

If bubinga is endangered,don't you think it is about high time they stopped selling it at Woodcraft?

[David Weaver]

I don't think I've heard that before (bubinga ) but can understand why Larry wouldn't like to make planes.

[ian maybury]

Thanks Winton, and David B too - that's the great granddaddy of a discussion (linked) on the specifics of the form of horse butt leather that makes the best strops. The Raggenbas video is great too. So atmospheric - quite apart from the planes they were formative years for me so it feels like 'home'. The cars are the sort i cut my teeth on - i had a string of Fiat 127s in the early 70s like the one parked slightly to the LHS outside their building at the start of the video.

[Kees Heiden]

Fiat 127, then you must have been familiar with the rust phenomen .

[ian maybury]

3 years from new and they usually had rust showing Kees. It didn't help that Fiat Ireland would often leave them for months in a park at the ferryport so they got well salted by the sea.

I did custom painting of motorcycles (in a small way), and didn't too much mind welding in bits of sheet metal and repainting. I had four and ended up with the late 1050cc sport model with a twin choke Weber carb - it revved and went like mad. (small and light car, reasonable power)

The wheel bearings and cam chain normally started to make noise at about 25,000 miles and needed changing soon after, and it was important to use distilled water with the right additive or the rad blocked and the engine overheated (and usually warped the cylinder head) - but other than that they were mechanically rock solid if minded.

Fairly typically Italian - got the basics right, but couldn't be bothered with the details. They had a huge slice of the market here, but it evaporated overnight when the Japanese sorted out their own rust problem and it wasn't acceptable any more. (remember the early Datsuns?)

[Kees Heiden]

So, now we have completely gone off topic. Our neighbour back when I was living with my parents allways had Fiats. He was the mechanics teacher in college and knew a lot about cars, he liked them. I have allways been a fan of these miniature fiats, the 500, the 600 and the 850, but never owned one. We had a lada for a while, a Russian copy of the 127. But that one was truly bad, we had to pull it of the road after only 60.000 km.

[Winton Applegate]

David,

I don't think I've heard that before (bubinga ) but can understand why Larry wouldn't like to make planes.

even though, apparently you had a typing fart there, I think I get what you meant to type. Nah he wasn't saying he was or wasn't going to use it to make planes. He was telling me I had no business using it or trying to plane it in the first place and so I should shut up and work with some real wood like walnut. But that if I wanted A REAL PLANE then I should try a steep bedded woody and quit banging on about bevel up planes which were just pie in the sky marketing gimmicks for sissy suckers like me.

He was partly correct. Maybe mostly correct. I didn't even know who the hell he was back then
but
I knew right off that I had run up against some body just as cranky and crazy as I am.

A delight and a terror at the same time.
Swords were drawn
things got ugly
pieces were flying all over the place.

awe I miss those days . . .
I eventually deciphered who the heck I was talking to. Much, much, much later I was able to obtain one of his wonderful planes.

I like the guy and his planes !
but then . . . I always say :
If you were leaving on vacation with your camper trailer and you had to go in to have a major brake problem solved on your truck would you rather have the sweetness and light guy who barely understands his job do it
or
would you rather battle your way to the old cranky bastard in the back who doesn't have time to talk to you who
REALLY UNDERSTANDS how to fix your brakes do it?

Rarely do you get both in the same package.