To strop or not to strop....

[Warren Mickley]

Drawings are good if they help us understand what we actually notice. Otherwise they are useless. My chemistry teacher said years ago, "if a model fails to explain the phenomena we observe, we discard the model and make a new one.

So here is Mike reporting good results from stropping with green stuff on leather. And here is Winton with drawings to show Mike that what he noticed did not really happen. Ridiculous.

I have used a clean leather strop for five decades. We strop because it improves performance. We strop on both sides because we can notice the difference. I think the ruler trick would be helpful if you were to have a class of beginners and wanted to get them working right away. Or if you are getting a new plane iron every month and are tired of flattening backs. If you can use the same iron for years at a time, the ruler trick is unnecessary.

[Jim Matthews]

The method that doesn't work for you is unneccesary.

To paraphrase Pancho Gonzales;
"Never change a winning game plan. Always change when you're losing."

[ian maybury]

Only finding my way into this territory, but a few 'so far' observations. As previously the insight that pops out is that stropping is used for very different tasks depending on who you talk to. There's those that seem to hone to about 1,000 grit on whatever stone/abrasive they use, and to do the rest on a strop. Which judging by some of the demo videos can entail using heavy pressure and leaning very heavily on the strop. It seemingly does produce a sharp edge, but begs questions about the more or less inevitable rounding of bevels. Which in turn judging by some reports (presuming the bevel angle at the edge is OK) may depending on methods and situation be much less of an issue than we might necessarily think. (i wouldn't want a heavily (or even lightly) stropped back on a chisel though)

The alternative scenario is the guy who carefully hones his blades on progressively finer and carefully flattened waterstones - finishing both faces on a very fine 1 micron (12,000 grit or thereabouts - or finer) stone. Probably using a honing guide so that the faces comprising the edge are flat and accurately aligned. This is already a very sharp edge.

Stropping and/or buffing does seem to be capable of delivering an improvement in this situation - i'm for example seeing a definite extra with a quick buff of a few seconds on each side using just a white fibre buffing disc on a WorkSharp with no compound of any sort - and doing my best to replicate the final honing angles. For sure though (and as some like Winton have said) hammering an edge like this with high forces on a soft strop seems highly likely to mess with the edge geometry you've just spent so much time to create. It's seems likely however that as David has said before that this extra sharpness probably survives only the first few contacts of the blade with the workpiece anyway - if that.

In this (very fine honing) situation the posts by people like David and George suggest that there's a similar benefit to be had from lightly stropping on MDF or a similar relatively hard surface for a few strokes (i've not tested this yet) - taking care to align with the geometry of whatever edge you have just put on. This is a very different process to the first - even though both are nominally 'stropping'.

All of these approaches seem very capable of delivering an edge that's sharp enough to handle most jobs - although there seem likely to be differences in how the tool performs which may or may not matter depending on working style. Convenience/practicality is a factor too. Waterstones using the Charlesworth approach or similar reliably produce sharp and accurately formed edge time and again with minimal scope for screw ups. A significant benefit many report with stropping is its usefulness as a means of quickly and by hand/without the need to set up honing guides/with no waterstone mess refreshing a slightly dulled blade.

My sense is that there's no pat answer to the question - that as many have said it's ultimtely a case of finding a method that suits your need and style, and working the bugs out of it until you are happy...

One related issue for me is the matter of how best to handle the stropping of micro bevels already worked up on fine waterstones or the like. (and i can't see how stropping the back side of a ruler tricked plane/ (not chisel) blade is much different to stropping the micro bevel on the other side) My instinct given the very small surface areas is to go lightly and for only a few seconds, and to take care to preserve the final honing angles (but feedback appreciated) - on the basis that this light stropping/buffing will likely strip off any debris amost at first touch, and that beyond that the risk of damage/dubbing rapidly increases.

Another is the use/non use of honing compounds. They all seem to contain grits much larger than the 1 micron or less of a very fine waterstone - yet they seem to deliver results. It's a very different working situation though compared to grits embedded in a waterstone, and the particles may anyway not be quite so hard and roll rather than cut...

[Pat Barry]

Drawings are good if they help us understand what we actually notice. Otherwise they are useless. My chemistry teacher said years ago, "if a model fails to explain the phenomena we observe, we discard the model and make a new one.

So here is Mike reporting good results from stropping with green stuff on leather. And here is Winton with drawings to show Mike that what he noticed did not really happen. Ridiculous.

I have used a clean leather strop for five decades. The guy who taught me was born in 1894 and the guy who taught him was born in 1828. We strop because it improves performance. We strop on both sides because we can notice the difference. I think the ruler trick would be helpful if you were to have a class of beginners and wanted to get them working right away. Or if you are getting a new plane iron every month and are tired of flattening backs. If you can use the same iron for years at a time, the ruler trick is unnecessary.

I think Winton's drawings, coupled with his explanation, do get the point (or lack of one on the resulting edge) across so I don't think we should be dismissive of that. In fact he doesn't strop and gets results he is happy with, and you do because thats the way you were taught and you get results you are happy with. Therefore the model fits, for each of you, and there is no need to discard either one. That leaves to each his own. Now for a beginner, I think hearing multiple options are important so that we can have a variety of approaches, all of which can work. I have no doubt in my mind that there are inherent technique intricacies that each of you use by habit that are so engrained that you can't explain them - things you learned through practice and do without thinking now. Those are the keys to success. Those are the things that each of us needs to learn for ourselves.

[Derek Cohen]

I have two leather strops hanging next to my bench. Both are hard horse butt from TFWW. Both are glued to a length of hardwood, smooth side up. One is plain leather and the other is covered with green compound (0.5 micron).

The plain leather strop is used after honing a blade, to remove any vestiges of wire. The green compound is used to refresh an edge that is dulling, and mainly used with chisels.

I do not consider the leather with compound to be technically a strop. It is really a sharpening leather.

About the ruler trick and sharpening: in a word, difficult. As I mentioned in another thread, the only time I use the ruler trick is with BU plane blades, and there it is to remove the wear bevel. It is only in recent years that I began doing so (so this is not a beginners technique on my part). For years I had sharpened BU blades without a ruler trick, and then would refresh a blade by "stropping" the back (with the green compound). It is difficult to strop a secondary micro bevel, which is used on the face as the likelihood is that one will dub/alter the angle. This is important on BU blades. Compensating for the now non-stropping is the new longer-lasting PM steel.

For those interested, there is a comparison of Stropping with green compound versus diamond paste

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Woodwor...mondpaste.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Winton's second drawing comes from how Japanese swords are sharpened,and how the shape of their cutting edge allows them to cut flesh more easily-it parts the flesh open,causing less drag on the sides of the sword.

So,are you guys wanting to cut wood,or try your edge on a prisoner?

So,as usual,everyone has an opinion,and I don't see how the OP has been able to learn anything. Only confusion. I don't have much time here,but I'll quickly say that to strop or not depends on how fine a stone you are putting your final edge on. I just use a white ceramic,which is not 12,000 grit. So.I give a few light passes on my MDF board. More details later.

Edit: I think how fine a stone you are using actually says it all. I have been stropping my edges since the 50's,and have been able to do the work I have done with the edges gotten from it.

But,as I have said many times, DISCRETION is really the most important factor in just about any endeavor. Don't over do it. The rest of the magic is learning to develop carisma(sp?) with materials-funny as that sounds. Learn how to coax your materials into doing what you want them to do. Some people are going to be able to develop this,and others will not.

[David Weaver]

Derek - your conclusion holds for razors also. The veritas compound (or more specifically, the microfine formax compound) is mostly aluminum oxide, but does a reasonable job on the edge, a little less fine than a true chromium oxide paste, but faster cutting than those all chrome ox pastes, too.

Silicon carbide and diamonds both leave ragged edges, and you have to go very fine to get a really smooth edge from them if ultimate sharpness and polish are desired. There are razor users who go to 0.25 micron diamonds and then to 0.5 micron (pure) chromium oxide because the chrome-ox is less ragged and harsh, even when the particle size is double.

All of that stuff is on the outer perimeter of anything *needed* for woodworking, but if someone wants to go all out....

[David Weaver]

But,as I have said many times, DISCRETION is really the most important factor in just about any endeavor. Don't over do it. The rest of the magic is learning to develop carisma(sp?) with materials-funny as that sounds. Learn how to coax your materials into doing what you want them to do. Some people are going to be able to develop this,and others will not.

I agree. I have used all of these compounds, but the real treat is in getting a piece of natural stone (or anything else) and figuring out how to lessen the spread of stuff and really get something out of it. I haven't used a compound on a razor that I shave with in quite some time, but instead various natural stones. The washitas clearly don't make an edge as sharp as an edge treated with compound, and maybe not quite as good as a well used hard arkansas, but the thrill with them is that you can get an awfully good edge if you learn what to get from them and then work instead from the "everything is sharpened to the compound" to seeing whether or not you really need it. And you get to see how different things react - for example, white II steel in a japanese chisel will get awfully sharp on a washita stone, because it's right at the edge of what the stone will cut. Same with razors, get one that's a little hard (but not too hard to hold its edge) and you can get a surprisingly fantastic shave off of a coticule that otherwise seems too coarse to do anything comfortably.

Long time ago, mel fulks said on here that poor steel created the need for super fine sharpening stones, or something to that effect, and I disagreed at the time, because the poor steels and fantastic sharpening stones do work well together. But, I agree now that there is something more desirable about those older tools with the dry feeling steels, and to me at least, something more desirable about using them with a stone that's a little more flexible. The results on the wood look the same, but the process is nicer to be a part of.

[george wilson]

I'm still using my old 1960's Marples chisels. I'm sure they aren't made of super steel!! More likely 01. Nothing fancy. I can get them as sharp as they need to be to leave polished cuts in ebony,boxwood,Cuban mahogany-whatever.

I stropped them for years on a leather strop with Simichrome on it. The more worn out the Simichrome got,the better. Now,I use the MDF with Veritas green compound.

What you want to do is change angles as you strop. It causes the microscopic "mountains" to be leveled off as you strop at various angles.

[ian maybury]

I'd forgotten about your piece on stropping Derek - it confirms the view that there's not going to be much difference between honing on a very fine waterstone and good stropping technique on a hard surface in terms of the edge delivered - meaning that choice of method has got to be a lot about subtler considerations/preferences what suits your working style.

Also that stropping over a micro bevel is (not surprisingly) potentially problematical given the risk of losing control of the geometry, and that it's better to strop a flat back on a hard flat so to speak. That said my guess is that there's some stropping over micro bevels, and presumably making that work too.

The biggest risk with stropping the flat backs of blades that i can see is that it likely must (unless the right hard (did I mention hard?)) strop and technique is used bring with it some risk of forming a bevel of some sort. Which may not be a significant issue on a plane blade, but is much more likely to be on chisels.

It has to be presumed too that what's perfectly acceptable for one person (given their work, style, knowledge and preferences) may not be for another.

The devil as ever is definitely in the detail - some of which as Pat even those getting good results are not even aware of...

[Jim Koepke]

I agree with you 100% Its the thought that maybe I am still missing something that keeps me pursuing a better understanding of sharpening. I am really happy with my blade edges right now.

If you are happy with what you have you should stay with it until a good reason comes along to try something else.

My blades seemed to perform quite well after honing on a 4000 grit stone. Then an 8000 grit stone was given a try. It is easy to see how a finer stone can render a sharper edge. The question is, for my needs is a minutely sharper blade really needed?

As for stropping my feeling is it gives a slight improvement to an edge just finished on an 8000 grit stone.

As others have said over stropping can ruin an edge.

To really see for your self take the time to sharpen a blade and test it with the method(s) you usually use to test sharpness. Then sharpen again only this time try finishing the blade on the strop. You may or may not see a difference.

And then I went back to look at the original post:

Hi guys. Couple weeks ago I was having issues sharpening and got some great feedback here and I have stumbled onto another issue.

I recently took delivery of some green honing compound and a leather strop from Tools For Working Wood. The edge that I am able to get is amazing.

My questions are:
How does the "ruler trick" fit into the stropping procedure? I have not tried the ruler trick simply because I like using the strop to remove any burr but I am concerned that I am doing myself a disservice. Should I do the ruler trick on my 8k and just call it a day?

The other question I have is this:

Do you notice longer edge retention when stropping and how soon do you touch up your edge on the strop.

The ruler trick is not for everyone. It is not a good practice for chisels. If you have a decent back on a plane blade it isn't needed.

Again, it is one of those things to put to your own testing to see if it is for you.

There are a lot of ways and theories on ways to make a sharp edge. My preferred method is what is simplest for my needs. Keeping it simple means there is seldom a purposely made secondary bevel. Sharpening freehand it is difficult to create a good secondary bevel though it is possible to create an unintended secondary bevel.

It is simpler for me to get a back flat than to use the ruler trick to make a small area ready to go.

Just my two cents.jpg, and as always, YMMV!!!.jpg.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Ok, I had an old leather work belt for the strop, coated with the green stuff.....Meh.

On chisels, 2500 wet & dry on a tile does enough for me. In use, I will swipe the chisel on my jeans as I go along. Once on the back, then once on the bevel, then back to work.

Plane irons, again just to 2.5K Never have tried the Ruler Trick. Moving away from the oil stone, as it has "issues". Sandpaper on a flat floor tile, from 150 trough 2.5K. seems to work for what I do. I get a mirror on the back, and on the bevel. Sharp enough to get a good manicure, too. Haven't tried to shave the face, ....yet. Not sure what soap to use for that...

[Adam Cruea]

I have the Veritas leather strop that's mounted to a hunk of maple hanging above my sharpening "station". One side has green stuff, the other side doesn't.

With anecdotal evidence, I feel the non-green side helps to get a sharper edge. *shrug*

Do whatever floats your boat and severs your wood fibers.

[george wilson]

When I was a kid with no money,I have mentioned that I used to strop my chisels on a piece of paper. Paper is a bit abrasive and with enough stropping,you can get a very sharp edge with it. Even off of the cheap,gray hardware stone I had at the time.

I often strop my pocket knife on the inside of the tongue of my wide leather belt,when in my recliner at ease. It is already very sharp,and if I use it for anything,I'll touch it up with the belt since it's handy.

I have mentioned that the more I let the Simichrome get worn out,the better an edge I could get.

So,yes,a plain piece of leather will make a very sharp edge. It just does it more slowly. Some well worn,fine abrasive like the green compound will do it more quickly. Or,finish up on a strop with no compound.

[Noah Wagener]

why does not alternating strokes on the stone bend the wire edge until it falls off? Does it just keep lengthening?

Is this wire edge visible? I can feel my fingernail catch after a preliminary stone but i can rarely see the edge and rarely can i even feel anything after a finishing stone. That little manual they have on sharpening at Tools for Working Wood says that it sometimes falls off in a sliver on the stone and the pic of it looked like a fish hook. I must be doing something really wrong.

When stropping the back of the tool do you lift it at all? I rub things on my hands or arms now and the times it works best are when i work at angles higher than on the stone.

Barber strops seem to be of the hanging variety that are pulled taut while it seems most of you use something adhered to a board. Why the difference?