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Thread: Wonder what LV is up to on 9/13?

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brady View Post
    I'm totally neutral on the introduction of these planes since I have my bench planes and won't be investing in any more of them. A couple of things impress me though. First, is I am surprised that there is little discussion about the performance of these tools. Second, I dislike when companies introduce new and improved products to the audience that has supported them through thick and thin. Some will welcome the new toys and fill the classified section of the forums with their outdated ones. Another maker of better planes now is in their improved Type 3 version, saying nothing about the hardy souls who are left behind with their Types 1 & 2. How much value do you think there is in those earlier planes? Yet another maker introduces their product and makes it the same for decades without change. Those planes retain about eighty-five percent of their current selling price. That says a lot to me.
    There is little discussion about performance because no one here has yet taken delivery of a production model.

    Second, companies have to improve, update or redesign their wares or their competition will. I am not sure about the WR problems before their improved Type 3 was shipped but have heard a few folks received replacement parts for ones that didn't work. The bigger question might be directed at LN when they finally realize the chip breaker needs to be able to reach the edge of the blade.

    There is value in earlier planes from some makers. The early WR planes lost value among the woodworking community as soon as they passed a cash register.

    On the other hand, many of the old Stanley/Bailey and Bedrock planes now sell for more than they did when they were new.

    IMO, these planes represent an advancement in the tools available to woodworkers. To me the chip breaker set up looks a bit strange. Other than that not much can be said without having one in hand.

    As far as performance goes, my expectation is it will be fantastic. Anything less will be the end of what looks to be a great product for those who can afford it.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Brady View Post
    Right on both counts. If I wanted technology in my craft I would buy a Domino tool and chuck the mortise chisels. And yes, I view my tools as an investment. I don't want to buy them twice.
    If your current hand planes work the way you want, why would you feel the need to buy new ones?

  3. #183

    my thoughts (after playing with them)

    I checked out the new planes in the store. The new totes/knobs are nice, the option of three different sizes and two tote angles should go a long way towards making sure people get a comfortable grip on the tool.

    The sliding mouth means there is no need to adjust the frog front-to-back. The frog sits on machined surfaces front and back and is held down with two beefy screws. The suggested method of aligning the frog is to slide the mouth piece back until it meets with the frog, this ensures the frog is square to the mouth.

    I didn't compare them side-by-side, but I think the blade alignment set-screws are wider than the ones on their other planes.

    The cap iron fastens to the blade via two screws that go into a "blade carrier" that fits over the adjuster lug. This is a close fit for minimal backlash, but it's a bit fiddly when replacing the blade after sharpening.

    It'd be nice to compare them side by side with their other bevel-down planes, but taken by themselves the new ones are very nice planes, certainly worthy of the Veritas brand.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Friesen View Post
    If your current hand planes work the way you want, why would you feel the need to buy new ones?
    I suspect you are an independent consultant for our wives?

    Even I fought the urge yesterday to buy one of the planes just out of curiosity, but the disease has lessened with me over time and I ultimately realized that I was setting it up like a stanley plane in the configurator. And I already have enough of those.

  5. #185
    Hi -

    Have been following this (and other) threads for a few days now, and am at a bit of a loss for words as to how to reply to some of the posts... so I'll just make a few observations and comments, and continue to watch the discussion.

    This product release was a huge one for us - five completely new designs (and supporting parts etc.) released simultaneously. It represents 3 1/2 years of work, hundreds of thousands of dollars in tooling and fixtures, backed up by several months of production. Additionally, we had to create completely new order flow processes to support on demand machining and assembly, where the goods are sold in one firm, but the parts are produced in another. In total, there are just shy of 10,000 permutations at this time (and that will undoubtedly grow). All done in complete secrecy too. Backing up retail delivery of these planes, we have designed and built a unique delivery experience – training staff in all stores to assemble each plane in front of the customer – explaining how all components work, and are set up. In essence, a lesson is delivered with every plane.

    This release also represents a move to bring the production of the wood components in-house – conversion of raw material, machining, and finishing. We have switched to a domestic torrefied-maple in place of bubinga. The commitment to manufacturing in wood from domestic material will bootstrap many other products, as we have now extended and enhanced our manufacturing capabilities.

    We have integrated many of the features found across our line into these planes, creating a feature set that is unique – while extending a range of choices that is unparalleled in any production plane. Each of these planes has an adjustable throat, throat stop, side set screws, interchangeable frogs, choice of three knobs, choice of two handle styles in three sizes, an optional “slow” adjuster, and the capability to order any bed angle from 40 degrees, to 65 degrees in ½ degree increments. Each plane will also accept fences from the Jack Rabbet and Skew Rabbet planes. Blade shapes have been re-worked to minimize material, while still giving the same useable length found in traditional blade styles. All of this, at a price which is competitive with existing choices in our line, or others.

    These planes can be used bevel down, with or without a chip breaker (cap iron), as the adjuster engages a repositionable blade carrier that is independent of chip breaker. It does not have to be removed for honing, and the carrier also registers the chip breaker – preserving the last location. If the bed angle is low – the blade can also be used bevel up, for high angle applications (though we do not claim this as a feature). These planes represent another distinct choice (or 10,000) in the range of choices available – either new or used.

    I get that if you’re happy with whatever planes you have – there’s no reason to buy any one of these. There are few hand tools that are ever made redundant by newer versions. At the same time – newer versions of many tools have much to offer people who have yet to make a choice.

    Cheers –

    Rob

  6. #186
    Given the way things normally go on the internet Rob, I'd say that the reception has been pretty good.

    It's nice to see an alternative that is straight and square that uses a cap iron. I've seen some negative opinions here or there about the cap iron being on the plane, but to each their own.

    It gives a beginner (who will probably master the tight mouth sooner than understanding a cap iron) room to grow, and most importantly, for those of us who unloaded BUS planes, etc, solely because of the handle angle putting us in pain, it puts the handle that people have been begging for (the stanley profile) in their hands.

    I'd suggest (and maybe I missed it), some pre-done configurators for the beginners. Some people will mire in indecision and not buy anything immediately and then ultimately not buy at all.
    You could have something like:
    *low bench stanley configuration (using a different term than stanley...unless you called it the stanley cup configuration or something to throw off those folks who abandoned us many years ago) - cap iron, 45 degrees, mid-height knob, stanley handle
    *high bench stanley configuration - same as above with high bench LV style handle
    * high angle single iron plane for low benches (55 degrees with a single iron and no cap iron and stanley profile handle)
    * high angle single iron planes for high benches (same as above with straight up handle)

    Given that beginners make up a large amount of the customer base at any given time and may not really grasp all of those things yet.

  7. #187
    Hi David -

    All good comments. We do have recommended configurations for each plane - though not for the handle, as that's really an individual choice. We blind tested handle shapes/styles with hundreds of people, and can only predict size preference based on the span on the user's hand across the palm.

    Cap irons - no doubt in my mind that they have benefit - but they are not a panacea for all applications, or users. We,too, have hundreds of hours of video of a plane cutting on a test jig under varying conditions....

    Our goal here is to let the customer make the choice - we want to enable them to use the plane however they want. Heck of a lot easier than trying to convert 'em to one method or another...

    Cheers -

    Rob

  8. #188
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    Rob Lee, any plans to make the Stanley style handles available for existing planes? I would love to buy a few of these, but a divorce would be far too expensive. So new handles may be a good compromise. (Unless you are planning to implement a trade up program! Then I'm all in.)
    Paul

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by paul cottingham View Post
    Rob Lee, any plans to make the Stanley style handles available for existing planes? I would love to buy a few of these, but a divorce would be far too expensive. So new handles may be a good compromise. (Unless you are planning to implement a trade up program! Then I'm all in.)
    It's under consideration, but have to get ahead of the curve on what we're doing now. On the list....

    Cheers,

    Rob

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lee View Post
    Hi -
    These planes can be used bevel down, with or without a chip breaker (cap iron), as the adjuster engages a repositionable blade carrier that is independent of chip breaker. It does not have to be removed for honing, and the carrier also registers the chip breaker – preserving the last location. If the bed angle is low – the blade can also be used bevel up, for high angle applications (though we do not claim this as a feature). These planes represent another distinct choice (or 10,000) in the range of choices available – either new or used.
    Congrats on this development, I think it is the most interesting thing that happened in the world of hand planes in a few decades.

    All internet babbling aside, few of us know the most important thing: how does it plane and what is usability and ergonomics?

    First, I suggest adding a # 6 size since I'd like to buy one... second, I suggest changing your website marketing to better explain what you just wrote above, so potential buyers understand what are design improvements you attempted to make it a better plane, aside from the fact that we can order different handles, or bed angle - not to take anything away from that - but I think most are interested, if I get this plane, what exactly you believe better about the tool than a traditional plane of the same size.

    I don't quite understand how "adjuster engages a repositionable blade carrier that is independent of chip breaker", but it sounds like it would be nice I only see chipbreaker, blade, frog, norris adjuster and lever cap. What is the carrier?

    Also, since you started it, do tell more about using it upside down.

    Finally, are samples available in retail stores for messing around with? I'll pass by Vancouver location on Thursday.
    Last edited by Marko Milisavljevic; 09-16-2014 at 9:24 PM.

  11. #191
    To attempt to answer my own question... I think blade carrier is a little gizmo that connects the blade to norris adjuster and on http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/customplane.aspx?c= can be seen as just barely floating above norris adjuster. I think it precisely fits inside the circular opening on bottom of the blade, letting you put the blade back with same depth setting - knowing how LV does things, I have high hopes that this will go a long way toward eliminating post-assembly fiddling.

  12. #192
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    Rob Lee, am I to understand that the blade can be used bevel down or bevel up in any of these planes? Or with or without a chipbreaker? I must be misunderstanding. If it is the case, that is very cool indeed.
    Last edited by paul cottingham; 09-16-2014 at 11:54 PM.
    Paul

  13. #193
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    Rob, I am sorry that we (I?) were critical of your new line. That wasn't my intention. Clearly, there is a lot of versatility in the new line. Maybe I didn't get the full range of the product through the videos. LV makes a high quality product line of which I have several items. I'll go back and relook at the videos. I really do appreciate the new totes/knobs. For me, a large, more angled tote is very desireable.

    Clearly, you are driving continuous improvement in LV. That is expected and what differentiates you from others. The internet is a tough forum. Keep up the good work.
    Shawn

    "no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

    "I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"

  14. #194
    Me again... found instructions tucked away on page 2 of customization process - it is the little "Instr" link next to each plane picture. Have not been able to locate that link anywhere else - here is direct link http://www.leevalley.com/en/shopping...s.aspx?p=72233

  15. #195
    Rob, I really suggest you alter that manual where the capiron distance is discussed. 1/64" is just outside the range of usefull settings, especially when the capiron bevel is rather low. When you decide to put a number in a manual it should be correct.

    Overall I am pretty positive about these planes as they appear to be on first sight. I'm not a fan of the typical LV looks, but that is my problem. A complete new range of handplanes from a major manufacturer is just plain good news.

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