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Thread: New experiments

  1. #1
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    New experiments

    This occupied a lot of my free time this year. Some new experiments to see if there is anything usefull in these chipbreaker thingies. I really hope Steve Elliott will get the article up on his website this weekend. Just to get some stoke going, here's a short videoclip.


  2. #2
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    Wow. You've been busy. Looking forward to seeing the article.
    Woodworking is terrific for keeping in shape, but it's also a deadly serious killing system...

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    Why is it necessary to make a machine to take a short stroke ??????????

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    To be able to measure something. All in the name of science.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Why is it necessary to make a machine to take a short stroke ??????????


    It insures 100% repeatability and removes all subjectivity from the tests. Also he's keeping the plane still so the camera doesn't have to move.

    Manufacturers build all manner of testing machines, flip switches on and off, throw bowling balls. It's just not normally seen on the hobbyist level. Have to raise a toast for Team Kees on this!

    -Tom
    Last edited by Tom Stenzel; 09-11-2014 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Usual forgetfullness

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    I am being serious now. Slow mo and a bit closer would be fun to see. Is there any way to get it that way on my end or yours ? Thanks for doing this experiment. I realize the result is what is coming next but since we got this vid I figger'd I'd put my two dollars in.
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
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    Better is Better.

  7. #7
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    Here's the best I could do. It's not very sharp though.



    Funny to see what happens to a shaving when there is no mouth. This hasn't been part of my investigations, but some Japanese scientist has looked into it and tried to find the most optimal mouth configuration to prevent clogging. A mouth shouldn't be too wide, because the initial curl of the shaving can't flow upwards out of the plane and jams the works.

    I wonder if people see these kind of shavings with a chisel plane too?

  8. #8
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    Close up of curl.

    I was just curious but this seeing of the curl kind of opens up a can of worms for me and now I can’t get them back in the can.

    This tightly wrapped curl, as it were, . . . makes me finally realize why BDers are, or (see next comment) might be obsessed with a tightly set throat opening on the order of several thousandths. It isn’t so much to prevent tear out, well it is indirectly, but to control the ejection of that jammer, jammer of a shaving. I’m scared just looking at it. I started looking for my pick to clear the jammed throat and then realized what I was doing.

    I never understood that obssession with the narrow throat before because my BU or BD single iron cut as well with a 1/16th or even 3/32 mouth, I dare say 1/8th does not make tight culed shavings like that. Why the last time I had shavings like that was the little Japanese scraper plane I bought just for the heck of it . When I got it the throat jammed like crazy, jammed tight and sold. I picked it out clean and pulled the blade out and relaxed the angle on the . . . wear . . . is that what David called it ? and she works great now. By the way another blade I did not have to sharpen when I got it; it was plenty fine as it came.

    and my next comment is . . . could a shaving like that win a planing contest ? Not the thinness, forget that I just mean the shape.
    I don’t know
    The curls I have seen in videos are long and relaxed.
    David mentions curls that are flat for the kind of curl he is talking about being correct.
    ?
    Is this a NORMAL shaving then ?
    If this is not a normal BD shaving does this draw into question the validity of the other data / conclusions ?
    Heck I don’t want to be a drag here but that is what went through my mind.

    I very much appreciate this machine, all the effort you are going through to finally demonstrate the effect of the properly set up double iron plane, the close up and slow mo I asked for, your graphing of the data,, your clear and enlightening description of your findings, . . . there is probably some I am leaving out due to ignorance on my part.

    Thanks for doing this


    Winton

    PS:
    I wonder if people see these kind of shavings with a chisel plane too?


    So you haven’t got one ?
    It doesn’t relate to this vid. It is a BU. So no curls like that. The chisel planes are fun to have around for starting a cut in the middle of a table or other surface and taking off a slight knob and never really effecting the rest of the surface. Like for instance taking off a cured drip on a finish or a narrow ribbon left by a chipped blade or a French polish pad that has sprung a leak and left a positive line in the finish.

    PPS: I don’t know if I should add this. It agrees with David in a way . . .
    First let me say I would have posted this last night but I had earlier, much earlier in the evening ate a dinner of Tortellini Gorgonzola (a la Gertrude’s with chicken). Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer used to be the head chef there for years and years after she quit her “Real Job”.

    Her “Real Job” was making (well helping to make) weapons for the military. Computer chips in a fab when fabs where all the rage in America. Remember those days ? Before all of it was farmed out to the cheep labor countries ? It was Fab ! ! ! I had money back then because I had lots and lots of customers from the money they made in the fabs and related jobs. Things were good. Homes were affordable . . .
    . . . Winton daydreaming . . . .
    . . . . . . . . . . .
    whaaaaaaaaa ? ? ? ? Hunh ?. . . . oh . . . yah . . . my point . . .

    Well two actually :
    first I can not handle my diary products, normally she doesn’t even bother serving them to me but we had a celebratory dinner for her best friend who has just reached her life’s goal and had become the department head and can pretty much write her own ticket now. Ahhhh you ambitious people . . .

    Her friend's favorite meal that Q cooks is the one of cheese with cheese on it mentioned above.

    I don’t hold my dairy well at all you see . . . I go to pieces and then to sleep soon after. I fought it as long as I could to look at the new vid footage, well inchage anyway, and to type my response and to finish looking at the the data and other older link.
    I fell asleep big time, before my normal three in the morning. Sorry I let the team down. It wasn’t my fault, they made me eat cheese ! I didn’t want to do it ! I didn’t !
    Alright . . . I like it ! Do you hear me ? I LIKED IT !
    there . . .
    and secondly :
    Well Q worked for Honeywell and several other fabs making wafers (roughly speaking slabs of silicon with circuits etched into metal on them that are computer chips) and as supervisor.
    She traveled around the country working for different fabs and figuring out where she liked to live and just generally taking advantage of the whole unbelievable situation. She worked with a whole passel of EEs over almost ten years.

    Before things got dire she had already bailed and was cheffing. She didn’t like the military aspect being a peace nick hippy chick, but a smart one, and so she had enough of the scene and wanted to do some direct good. She’s like that but she LOVES everything about great food so that was what she went into.

    Yah . . . it’s rough living with a chef but I makes the most of it and muddle through as best I can.

    This morning when I mentioned the latest in the BUBD “TALKS” she said “Electrical Engineers, those guys are theorists not mechanical/gear heads”. Well she said a good deal more that I can’t repeat here but that about boils it down.

    Ha, ha, ha, hey . . . don’t laser the messenger . . .
    Sharpening is Facetating.
    Good enough is good enough
    But
    Better is Better.

  9. #9
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    Why am I suddenly craving cheese? Winton?

    Oh, and looking forward to more work on this.

  10. #10
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    The curl. Yes, let's theorise a bit.

    First, I am not alone. This phenomen is described in several Japanese articles. This one is from Akinoi Yamashita, Studies on mechanism of ortogonal cutting of wood with Japanese planes IV. Effects of capiron and chipguide on chip discharge and cutting resistance in cutting against the grain. 1979.

    Curl.jpg
    The same curl can be seen in Kato's pictures too. Because of the enlargement of their pictures, it isn't immediately obvious, but can be clearly seen in the pictures in in this article:
    http://planetuning.infillplane.com/h...ker_study.html

    Now, I've never really witnessed this in a real handplane. Never paid much attention to it either. My wooden foreplane has a mouth at least 5mm wide and it makes normal shavings as far as I know. You should explain one thing to me though. Why would a bevel up plane behave differently? All the cutting takes place within a few tens of a mm. After that the shaving curls away from the steel. How is the shaving to know at that moment whether the bevel is up or down?

    My jig doesn't have a planesole and it doesn't have a mouth. That's pretty standard thoughout the woodworking industry when they research cutting forces (I've read heaps of articles). So maybe we are all wrong, but for the moment I presume that I can get valid measurements with this.

  11. #11
    A mouth would only be useful if one of the planes experienced tearout. We don't need a tight one with the double iron, and if we had one with the single iron plane, it would add a required force, though I'm not sure which direction. My infill with a tiny (but effective) mouth suggests that.

  12. #12
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    As soon as a tight mouth is tight enough to help against tearout, you can feel the extra resistance in pushing the plane.

  13. #13
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    There's exceptions of course but experience here suggests that electronics attracts more of those of an intellectual/digital/left brain mind. Processors. Mechanical and the better electronics guys tend also to have a much more more holistic, intuitive, conceptual and blended way of thinking as well.

    It's great to see the work being done Kees, and its fun to talk about. My personal instinct is that it might be helpful to think of this stuff from less of a tool based perspective - and more from a chip formation/handling one. I posted elsewhere the suggestion for example that a bevel down plane with chip breaker, scraper plane with a burnished and turned edge and back bevel, and also a bevel up all seek to employ a similar principle - to prevent the wood splitting ahead of the cutting edge by pushing the shaving down into the surface, and also back in the direction of movement of the edge. Also by forcing it up through a relatively tight radius bend. A tight mouth seems to reinforce the holding down principle - but it sounds like it may be possible to get enough effect and hence eliminate the need for it by correct configuration of the cutting edge.

    The burnished and turned edge on a scraper seems analogous to the projection of the blade on a bevel down plane in front of a closely set chip breaker, and the chip breaker itself to the main body of the scraper blade. A bevel up blade approximates to similar effect using the face of the bevel/microbevel - maybe (or maybe not) at some cost in terms of this and the wider cutting edge angle and reduced back clearance.

    The thought is that if experimental work could perhaps identify all of the significant variables in play (and there's probably lots e.g. the friction/gripping characteristics of the surface functioning as a chip breaker, and then there's the multitude of ways that different woods and pieces can behave) , and then figure out the critical ones and how they act we might possibly end up with a more universal template/set of objectives/rules for use in configuring cutting edges for minimal tear out. There's another set of variables in play too when we switch to a hand held tool - preferred/required handling characteristics in terms of the force required to drive the blade, and/or hold it down on the surface etc.

    The experience with disposable carbide inserts used for machining metal for example has been that chipbreakers and the like are formed into the shape of a solid and one-piece edge. e.g. a U section groove on the top face behind the cutting edge. Probably not a runner in wood given the variability of the material - but who knows. How's about pre-sharpened solid drop in inserts for plane blades available ground in different profiles (e.g. a crosswise concave groove ground into the top surface just behind the cuttinge edge to create some optimum configuration of pitch angle and chip breaker) to suit different working situations? It could possibly open the way to using much harder and more wear resistant materials than at present.

    I'd hate to see the craft and DIY dimension removed (because this is where this stuff may be headed - and it would concentrate knowledge into a very few hands), but a blade with a separate chip breaker like a bevel down plane amounts in effect to a user configurable cutting edge. Trouble is that we're still relying on experience/individual know how and black magic to determine how to set it up, and working with materials that deliver relatively a short working life between tune ups.

    Pardon my coming in at cross purposes - I've been setting up a scraping plane for the last few evenings (having just done bevel up and down planes) and have had to conclude from searching the net that while there's broad agreement on major factors (it requires a sharp edge) that there's not much concensus/there's differing views on the detail of exactly how the blades and/or chip breakers on these tools should be set up...
    Last edited by ian maybury; 09-17-2014 at 4:11 AM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post

    I'd hate to see the craft and DIY dimension removed (because this is where this stuff is headed - and it would concentrate knowledge into a very few hands), but a blade with a separate chip breaker like a bevel down plane amounts in effect to a user configurable cutting edge. Trouble is that we're still relying on experience/individual know how and black magic to determine how to set it up, and working with materials that deliver relatively a short working life between tune ups.
    To set up a cap iron or to set up a scraper? The cap iron is quick to set up, probably 15 seconds of extra time in setting the plane up before putting it together (sunday I had to take a plane apart to move the cap iron back, the first time I have had to do that in 6 months, and then I remember - it was a try plane - and I had been fiddling with the cap iron to play with the plane with it set close - something I normally wouldn't do), and the time and effort it saves once being set up over not using a cap iron is measured in minutes. It's a good trade off.

    It does require a little bit of experience to get good results, but not much. A couple of weeks, I guess, and then after that you should expect excellent results all the time.

    If you're concerned about scraper setup, see david charlesworth's articles and discussions on setting up hard-ironed scrapers (like the scraper plane, etc). It makes a good setup with a good strong burr guaranteed every single time.

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    Do be careful, boys. From here it looks as though you are teetering on the brinks of your navel's event horizons. I worry that you may fall in. ;-)
    ~ Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.

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