Mechanics of chipbreakers and high cutting angles in woodworking planes. Abstract.

[Derek Cohen]

David, it was not a serious planning session, but a quick illustration that the chip breaker imparts a positive effect on performance. While not perfect, it was enough to show the effect.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Right, I get that. I guess i'm wondering about a different point, and that is whether or not the plane itself could make a finish-ready surface and negate the need for the 55 degree plane in the first place.

[Winton Applegate]

I went to the shop and made curls and yes they started out very tight. See first two photos.
I never really noticed the very beginnings being so tight.

Most of my serious problem planing was on the long planks and the ribbons were so long I always thought they were straightish. See the last photo (it is bubinga not purple heart. I suppose it started out all tightly wrapped but the vast majority of it is relaxed and pretty straight.

I was also referring to David W.s comment that when you get the setting right it straightens out the curl.

. . . sheeeesh

? ?

[ian maybury]

We tend to get very caught up in and identified with our individual thought bubbbles, but i think we're all caught in and subject to the fairly random seeming the ebb and flow of information and opinion so far as woodworking is concerned - especially regarding fairly esoteric stuff like fine set up of planes. Seems fairly clear that it's long been known that close set chip breakers, higher pitches and very sharp edges help with tearout, but not universally/it probably mattered to only a few doing relaatively high end work. Against that there's tools, methods (stuff like waterstones and diamond plates) and hardware available (stuff like good blades) that seem to make precise set ups more accessible now too.

It seems like there have long been pockets of knowledge and highly analytical individuals that have had or rediscovered this sort of capability, but that it has arisen and flourished locally in places, and then faded out again at times. As in there's never any definitive store of information or institution to pass it on that's not lost as change happens and people age and die. Especially not very high level craft skills - so many of which are unspoken anyway, and which so few become capable of or give a rat's ass about. Wonder how many times the wheel has been invented?

The internet - where groups of interested people who previously would have worked away in isolation get to inspire each other, to pass on information and to create high intensity interest groups adds something that hasn't been around before - there's a definite hot housing effect. An essential spark for guys like me working in isolation.

Wonder if our bubble too will in due course pop and fade out??? We still don't always do a great job of separating out and recording the stuff that really matters - we struggle to extract and communicate essentials, get hung up on stuff, and can never be sure how generalisable our experience is. It's in there somewhere in the cacophony of comment, but not necessarily in a form that an unskilled reader might be able to extract. Can you imagine some archaeological type happening on a lost memory device in centuries to come and what they might make of it all...

[David Weaver]

I was also referring to David W.s comment that when you get the setting right it straightens out the curl.

? ?

Yes, straightens - the thicker the chip, the more it will take its own structure of straightness and turn out into long shavings. I like to work just short of that, though, straightening the chip means you're doing work that you might not have to do.

When it comes to smoothing stuff like bubinga, I'm pretty indifferent about the type of plane. It takes a polish off of any plane, high or low angle, and as long as it doesn't tear out it will take a great polish in finishing.

Straight chips out of a single iron plane are a little tighter in terms of their ruffles. The ones that come off of a cap iron set plane can be just about perfectly straight if the plane is set up to work the chip (there should be no accordion shavings out of a double iron plane).

I called Lloyds of London this morning, and they said the over under for Winton Applegate to switch to double iron planes was July 1, 2016

(you can get bevel down from LV, too - they have two types - I know you like bubinga, though, and they sourced maple (i think) for the handles)

[Winton Applegate]

I called Lloyds of London this morning, and they said the over under for Winton Applegate to switch to double iron planes was July 1, 2016

Oh well that was in code. You need the key to break it. Here I'll translate . . . since I have the key handy . . .
[July 1, 2016 after a long and tedious wait in the order queue the Winster takes delivery of his new single iron Marcou plane made in New Zealand by Philip Marcou.]

I will whip out the reason (whether it is true or not I leave to your imagination):

I am too old to change, new fangled double iron planes these kids use today . . . WELL ! . . . Back when I was a youngin we used those single iron planes that were harder to push . . .
REAL HARD to push . . . and we LIKED IT THAT WAY . . .
Back then we used to walk through snow waist deep to get to school too. . .
every day . . . we went to school seven days a week back then . . . AND WE LIKED IT THAT WAY !

So David,

? It is no big deal that the various machines planing wood in the laboratories are not setting the set up to get more relaxed shavings ?
Or would it make a significant change in the planing effort or longevity of the blade or the Fn ?
or it is just because there isn't a sole / throat that the shaving curls ?

[David Weaver]

It's too late at night for me to think about what they do in laboratories or in tests. All I can say when you mention double irons in actual use is...."mmmm...is good".

(I think they set the cap iron up where it's working the wood because no other subtlety or skill is available and they're trying to avoid tearout, and not necessarily plane the nicest surface with the least force. If they did, they'd say "mmmm...is good")

[Winton Applegate]

Late at night ? ? ? ?
Its still early . . . after I leave your learned aura I plan to watch Creature from the Black Lagoon and Revenge of the Creature
back to back
Wish me luck . . .
have a pot of coffee and relax . . . (hey it works for me some how)
. . . the night is young.