Building a wooden jointer

[Judson Green]

Interesting, so having a more vertical tote might not be a good idea?

Seems that draping the pinkie of the side might be near impossible with a more vertical tote. Is there a preferred angle? Loosely copy a Bailey?

Edit: I mention this (and not wanting to start a brawl) but some of Derek's planes have pretty upright totes. I think he does this in regard to a higher bench, hopefully he'll chime in.

[David Weaver]

I would have a handle like the vintage woody planes have. It's probably similar too the early stanley bailey handles.

The veritas mantra (or LV) from the beginning has been to prefer handles intended for a somewhat higher bench height than the vintage benches. It's hard to really determine what you like or don't like unless you get a chance to try them, both, but if taking a guess, I'd give a nod to the old planes (nearly all of them had a more traditional handle angle).

[Steve Voigt]

Interesting, so having a more vertical tote might not be a good idea?

Seems that draping the pinkie of the side might be near impossible with a more vertical tote. Is there a preferred angle? Loosely copy a Bailey?

Edit: I mention this (and not wanting to start a brawl) but some of Derek's planes have pretty upright totes. I think he does this in regard to a higher bench, hopefully he'll chime in.

The handle template that I posted on the first page of this thread is a very close copy of a typical 19th c. handle. It matches up quite closely to the ones I own and/or have measured in antique shops etc.

By the way, the basic guidelines of traditional plane design that I listed are typical not only for double iron 19th c. planes, but also for 18th c. single iron planes--Wiley Horne measured a number of his Old Street/C & W planes for me, and the numbers all pretty much agree. I notice that Dave's measurements indicate a slightly thicker plane, but the other measurements are all pretty close.

Now, you can certainly experiment--I did--with vertical totes, moving the mouth back, shorter planes with stubby irons, etc. Nothing wrong with experimenting. But just keep in mind, you are mixing and matching elements from different systems, and the results are likely to be about as good as when you mix and match radically different sharpening systems together--not very good, in other words. There's also a great chance that you are reinventing "improvements" that were tried, and rejected, in the past. People have this false image of the past, that everyone was just slavishly following tradition and building what their elders told them to. It's not true. Everything under the sun was tried, but the bad ideas were discarded along the way. So what you are left with is the ideas that stood the test of time.

Just speaking for myself, my own problems with plane design ended when I stopped trying to be original and started studying and copying traditional designs.

[Derek Cohen]

Interesting, so having a more vertical tote might not be a good idea?

Seems that draping the pinkie of the side might be near impossible with a more vertical tote. Is there a preferred angle? Loosely copy a Bailey?

Edit: I mention this (and not wanting to start a brawl) but some of Derek's planes have pretty upright totes. I think he does this in regard to a higher bench, hopefully he'll chime in.

Hi Judson

I wrote four articles on this theme, and these can be found on my website, here: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/Index.html

To answer more simply: I would not say that my handles tend to be more vertical. Some of them are, most are not. Part of the reason is that the bench I built a few years ago is 2" lower than its predecessor. I replaced a number of my handles with a Bailey style.

While a more upright handle will take the weight off the mouth and create a horizontal vector, which makes for easier pushing, a lower bench will cause the wrist to cock a little more, which can become fatiguing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Judson Green]

I'm just curious and asking why.

If I was to build a jointer I think I'd do something Davids but with a tote, like George's that I linked to. Stay traditional.

[Judson Green]

Back to the off set thing.

How far off center axis? Just far enough to so your pinkie can drape?

I think you mentioned at one time it being very hard to find one (a plane with off center tote) any more. Did they go out of fashion for a reason?

[David Weaver]

George showed pictures of planes from the queen mary (or drawings or something) where the handles were actually on the edge of the plane, not just off center. I guess the whole range was used, though more recently I'd probably try to find an overhead picture of an old plane and scale it if I were going to go off center. At this point, I think I probably won't. I'm on the fence about what handle style to make, too, but I may just dead copy the one on my jt brown jointer, even though I think the front of the handle doesn't match the attractiveness of the back.

[george wilson]

Steve,you just said the same thing that I have said about tools:survival of the fittest.

David,I did not post pictures of planes with handles on the side. I have none. But,what you are recalling is what I said about planes I saw from the 16th. C. Mary Rose(now,I'm thinking I have forgotten the name!!!). It was Henry the eighth's largest warship. A gust of wind toppled it. Likely the lowest gun ports were open to show off the might of his favorite ship. More than one ship was lost like that. Same thing happened to the Vasa in Sweden (The name means water). Both were too top heavy. The English style was to overload their ships with heavy cannon. That didn't help either.

Anyhow,the ship became imbedded in silt,and the wooden tools,long bows,arrows,etc. looked like the day they were made. Nice,pink beechwood. All the iron parts perished entirely,though,in the salt water.

The planes were terribly crude. The jack planes just had a long dovetail on their handles,which was inlet into the users right side. They were short,and designed so the web of the thumb did the pushing,instead of the palm. 3 fingers went down the side of the plane.(Did I have an argument with Larry about this?) Those old timers knew about carpal tunnel,and knew to avoid it. They had to to be able to survive by working. There was no help if they got disabled,unless they had sons who could work and contribute to the family. Daughters too,in some occupations. Everyone had to work,and work very long hours.

An interesting side note was that about 20 years ago,a shipment of Russia leather,reindeer hides wrapped into big bundles,was salvaged from a shipwreck of similar age,IIRC. It was very old,anyway. They were selling the hides for $400.00 each. The shoe maker bought a hide. I refrained from getting one as I don't care for Russia leather. They even left the eye lashes on the skins. You could still smell traces of birch oil in the leather. The edges had shriveled and turned black,but 99% of the hides were like new. Buried in silt where there was no oxygen to rot them. Russia leather was leather that had a criss cross pattern rolled into it by wooden rollers. I had to simulate it years earlier on a repro of a document box I was asked to make for the president of Argentina. Somewhere here I did post pictures of it. They gave me 4 days to make it!!(As usual!!) The suits had no idea what effort they demanded of the craftsmen. As if we could pull stuff out of thin air.

[David Weaver]

I knew i had the name of the boat wrong. I thought I saw the pictures somewhere, but the mary rose society has a site (go figure that they talked about stuff other than the tools on a lot of the site), and maybe that's where I saw the pictures.

[george wilson]

I saw what was left of the Mary Rose in Portsmouth,England. It is erected on a large wall in a special room with large viewing windows. It is constantly sprayed with some kind of chemicals to get it conditioned to eventually be in the open air. It is quite a large ship. Only part of the starboard side was left,from being buried in the silt.

[Steve Voigt]

Steve,you just said the same thing that I have said about tools:survival of the fittest.

Not the first thing I stole from you; won't be the last.

Did I have an argument with Larry about this?

Doesn't matter what the topic is--the answer is yes!

[Judson Green]

The planes were terribly crude. The jack planes just had a long dovetail on their handles,which was inlet into the users right side. They were short,and designed so the web of the thumb did the pushing,instead of the palm. 3 fingers went down the side of the plane.

Am I picturing this right? Nearly Krenov-ish? Aren't some of his longer planes kinda like that?

[David Weaver]

Am I picturing this right? Nearly Krenov-ish? Aren't some of his longer planes kinda like that?

shorten the handle on a bench plane and move it all the way to the right. There is still a handle on the plane so you can lift push and move the plane with the web of your hand and not have to grab.

(actually, I think I might be remembering some planes that were on a plate from an old text and more modern (as in within the last 400 years), and not the mary rose planes).

[Jim Matthews]

WKISSWICHFMIC (Why Keep it Simple When I Can Have Fun Making it Complicated?)

I wonder if you, and my wife are distant cousins.
This is the same winning notion that lead to Windows 8.