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Thread: How many professional woodworkers using no power tools? ....

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    You do beautiful and realistic work,Zach. I guess we just go about it by different means. At my age,with several things wrong with me,I'm not going to hand plane wood from the rough. And,like you pointed out,wood was available in man thicknesses back then. Today,we are stuck with just a few.

    But,I will say that it is the skill of the worker that the finished product depends upon. I have made parts for harpsichords on order from the curators that fooled every one of them as to which was the original. Then,they got all exercised about it,and wanted me to SIGN each part I made. I did so. They are going to have a great time of it if my main patron dies and leaves her collection,full of parts I made,to the museum. She did not want me to sign them.

    I ought to take down the picture of the lock: The picture does not show the surface very well.

    I had to make a very large lock,about 9" x 12",for the state capital in Richmond some years ago. No pictures,sorry. I used a really old,beat up sheet of brass,polished it a bit and left it full of little dings. They had the RANDOMNESS that only natural years of being in a pile of other metal could bring. Fakers most often fall way short of properly distressing surfaces. That is a main short coming(among many others!) So,if I can get a piece of dinged up brass to make a lock,I'll use it.

    On another occasion,I fixed up a lock for Bruton Parish Church. Old locks get too worn out to work after 200 years. I've done a fair amount of messing around with old locks. And,the available reproductions do not fit the old place on the door,worn from the lock being there. I think it looks horrible to put a different size lock on an old door.
    Right on, George. I appreciate your kind words.

    No one has the qualifications to question your methods or your results and I am certainly not doing so. Your body of work speaks for itself and no can disagree with that. And you are 100% right, at least in my experience, that fakers fail to get the surfaces right. I think that they most often trade in fantasy and "it is what I want it to be" syndrome in the head of the buyers. If they took the time to study the work, most fakes (and most reproductions too) stick out like a sore thumb.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan sherman View Post
    I have to disagree with this statement as it's to broad in my opinion. I have seen several examples of hand cut dovetails over the years that look exactly like machine cut ones because the craftsman was very skilled and precise. Now if you bring the size of the pins into the equation then yea, you can definitely weed out dovetails made with a router. However you still have the hybrid bandsaw method, and that muddies the waters a bit.

    like everything else in life its all shades of grey, and circumstantial.
    For the record, I've never seen such things but I'm willing to stipulate that it is possible in theory. Practically, I don't see it happening but that is just my opinion. I've never seen a hand dovetail that was so perfect and precise that it made me think they were machine made. Even Frank Klausz's dovetails are clearly handcut. I'm sure glad I don't have the skill (or at least the desire to show it if I do have it, which I probably don't!) of making dovetails look machine cut. I'd rather make authentic pieces. If my goal was make dovetails that mimic those made by machine, I would just use a router. There is no merit badge for hand cut dovetails, at least in my book, and no reason to do it unless authenticity is the goal or it simply gives you pleasure (which I don't understand, but to each his own).
    Last edited by Zach Dillinger; 09-25-2014 at 11:25 AM.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  3. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach Dillinger View Post
    .

    Dan, you may be correct, but I'm glad I don't have the supposed skill of making dovetails look machine cut. I'd rather make authentic work. If the goal is make dovetails that look like machine cut, just use a router. There is no merit badge for hand cut dovetails, at least in my book, and no reason to do it unless authenticity is the goal.
    I don't think the craftsmen where intentionally making the dovetails look like machine cut ones. It's just that the proportions they used could be duplicated by a machine. For sure there is no merit badge, but in many cases hand cut dovetails are faster than machine cut ones. Setting up a jig takes time, sometimes a lot of it.
    -Dan

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan sherman View Post
    I don't think the craftsmen where intentionally making the dovetails look like machine cut ones. It's just that the proportions they used could be duplicated by a machine. For sure there is no merit badge, but in many cases hand cut dovetails are faster than machine cut ones. Setting up a jig takes time, sometimes a lot of it.
    I'm with you 100% on the speed, but even if the proportions are perfect, there will be subtle clues to differentiate the two. That is what I was getting at with my admittedly broad statement. Cheers Dan.
    Last edited by Zach Dillinger; 09-25-2014 at 11:24 AM.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan sherman View Post
    To me it all comes down to choosing the best tool for the job at hand, some times its a power tool, some times its a hand tool. It's not something I'm conscious of, but if I had to make a list I would say any number of the following things play a part in choosing rather a hand tool or power tool gets used.

    1. what tools are in my arsenal
    2. how repetitive is the task
    3. how safe is the task
    4. what level of accuracy is required for the task
    5. how long will the task take given the various methods
    Well said.

    I went with handtools, so I could work in my basement without raising dust in the house.
    Shavings are easier to contain, when they're straight out of my plane.

  6. #111
    "but in many cases hand cut dovetails are faster than machine cut ones. Setting up a jig takes time, sometimes a lot of it."
    - You are comparing apples with oranges. Yes, a skilled handcut dovetailer (Paul Sellers, Rob Cosman) can cut one or two joints much faster than a power-tool guy who uses his jig occasionally. Have you seen those guys at tradeshows demonstrating their jigs? Give Paul, Rob or Frank 10 large drawers each (not ten joints) and give the same to one of those jig show people (do you know how many joints they cut each day for the demos?), you can bet that when Paul, etc. are still cutting their 3rd or 4th or 5th (!)drawer, the power tool guy is already sipping his cup of coffee he buys from Starbucks from across the street. Humans don't beat machines in speed.

    Your generalization is not right; it is not in many cases but in some cases only.

    Also if someone can cut a dovetail joint in perfect proportion like a machine, it is not called skill, it is luck! No dovetail teachers or users in this world can claim that they can reliably or in a repeated manner cut dovetail joints like a machine...they are not woodworkers if they can, they are magicians.

    Simon

  7. #112
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    I have heard budget times on drawers of 20 minutes (that's what klausz says with hand cut through dovetails on all four corners, sides cut to size, grooved and the bottom fit).

    There is room for a skilled worker to make much nicer looking DTs than a machine can make. When I visited my parents last year, I took pictures of all of the dovetails in their relatively common furniture (it is old, though, all are hand done). They were handsome in proportion, the drawer sides not overly thick and the pins were small and thin. All but one drawer has lasted well over 100 years, and none of the dovetails were particularly sloppy (all looked better than any machine made dovetails I've seen).

    I personally would pay whatever difference there would be in price, and I'm sure there wouldn't be much difference.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    I find it hard to understand why people who choose to build using hand tools alone want to or try to convince others that hand tools get things done faster than power tools. They simply don't for furniture-makers who do that for a living. Simon
    Most of us would be considered weekend woodworkers.
    There are some in that group that have very fine skills,
    and resulting builds that attest to that.

    I'm not in that group.

    For those of us that will only make one dining table, a few chairs, several end tables and the occasional cabinet -
    working by hand is faster. I suspect that is down to setup errors, and fewer recuts.

    It is important to note that for many of us, that speed could be better measured with a calendar or analemma.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Matthews View Post
    For those of us that will only make one dining table, a few chairs, several end tables and the occasional cabinet -
    working by hand is faster. I suspect that is down to setup errors, and fewer recuts.
    This is simply not correct. You make just as many errors doing things by hand as you do with machines. This is a person problem not a tool problem. If you have to make re-cuts then a power tool is always faster than a hand saw - also more precise. I can go back to my table saw and trim a tiny bit more off - something you cannot do by hand sawing. Regardless, there is no way you can make a few chairs, a dining room table or the occasional table faster by hand tools alone than you could using power tools. Its simply not possible.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Regardless, there is no way you can make a few chairs, a dining room table or the occasional table faster by hand tools alone than you could using power tools. Its simply not possible.
    To my mind, the more important thing is that you could not make the same furniture. The handtools and power tools will yield pieces that look and feel significantly different. Try to make spokeshaved spindles with a power tool. Try to make kerf entry pins with a power tool. And on and on.
    ~ Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post
    To my mind, the more important thing is that you could not make the same furniture. The handtools and power tools will yield pieces that look and feel significantly different. Try to make spokeshaved spindles with a power tool. Try to make kerf entry pins with a power tool. And on and on.
    Its important to note, as you have here Sean, that there is likely a proper tool for each task at hand and that often a hand tool IS the right tool for the job. I don't have a power spokeshave for example. I do also agree that the results may have different characteristics between hand tooled and machine tooled.

    I have been looking for flooring lately. I am astounded at the quantity of 'hand scraped' flooring on the market. Where exactly is the internment camp where all that hand scraping is done?

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post

    I have been looking for flooring lately. I am astounded at the quantity of 'hand scraped' flooring on the market. Where exactly is the internment camp where all that hand scraping is done?
    Same place where the Amish have their "handbuilt" furniture factories.
    Your endgrain is like your bellybutton. Yes, I know you have it. No, I don't want to see it.

  13. #118
    Sorry guys, but I am becoming amused. What on the surface seems to be disagreement and argument about hand vs power is not. Almost all of you are saying the same thing in different ways. There is a place for both and both hand and power are faster than the other given the variables of quantity and setup time or lack thereof. I am no speed demon, but rarely have I had to make more than 4 drawers at a time and quite often it is only one. For me dovetails using hand tools are the answer because of the versatility and the number of options I have for sizing, style, and spacing. I also need little more than a saw, something to mark with, and my chisels. Everything else like a bench etcetera I already have for other uses and operations. This means I don't have to buy special router bits and an expensive jig and then read the manual, and do setups until I get things right wasting time and lumber. To me this means hand cut dovetails are both more cost effective AND efficient. If someone is doing a dozen drawers, it is a whole different situation.
    Dave Anderson

    Chester, NH

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Anderson NH View Post
    Sorry guys, but I am becoming amused. What on the surface seems to be disagreement and argument about hand vs power is not. Almost all of you are saying the same thing in different ways. There is a place for both and both hand and power are faster than the other given the variables of quantity and setup time or lack thereof. I am no speed demon, but rarely have I had to make more than 4 drawers at a time and quite often it is only one. For me dovetails using hand tools are the answer because of the versatility and the number of options I have for sizing, style, and spacing. I also need little more than a saw, something to mark with, and my chisels. Everything else like a bench etcetera I already have for other uses and operations. This means I don't have to buy special router bits and an expensive jig and then read the manual, and do setups until I get things right wasting time and lumber. To me this means hand cut dovetails are both more cost effective AND efficient. If someone is doing a dozen drawers, it is a whole different situation.
    Completely agree... I am primarily a power tool guy and do my dovetails using a WoodRat (recently upgraded to Router Boss), which is a ton faster than other dovetail jigs, requiring very little setup. Still though, if I had the skill and had only one drawer to make, I would probably do hand cut. Until I am able to invest in the time to learn to hand cut, it will be all power tools all the time for me. But, if I had the skill, for the occasional 1-2 it would certainly be hand cut for the fun of it, if for nothing else provided the time difference is not huge.

  15. #120
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    it all depends on ones training and efficiency. it also depends on what you are making. some items are designed to be made by hand while others are designed machine work and there are separations within that context whether CNC or conventional.
    there are also the priorities of how one wants to lead their life(lifestyles) and personal satisfaction in what one wants to achieve
    there use to be an ignoramus on knots who use to bring this subject up continually about money and making, but he never lived the life( he spent his working career in a non productive role in a government sponsored role). he made a few things that were not that great
    ron

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