How many professional woodworkers using no power tools? ....

[Graham Haydon]

Nice post Tom, I remember seeing the photos of those windows, would love to try some of that pine!

[John Coloccia]

Today as hobbyists we, and often the professionals too, do almost everything from start to finish. Rarely does anyone farm out part of the work except maybe for upholstery. I think this is often a mistake. I can carve, but not well, and I really don't take a lot of joy doing it, so on an important piece for my wife I should probably send it out. Unless your ego is involved and you need to say that it is solely you work I think this is a valid approach.

I had mentioned this exact thing earlier on with regards to Japanese craftsmen. They have no problem sending out specialized jobs to specialists. In the guitar building world (not necessarily all instruments, but definitely guitars) there is a GREAT stigma to doing this. In order to be a successful builder, you almost need to master several different disciplines, each one of which could really take a lifetime to master. There's a little secret underworld in the biz from people farming out neck work, fret work, finish work, etc, and even ghost builders. It's all very hush hush, no one ever talks about it, and when they're caught it's a big scandal. LOL.

I'm not really sure when this sense of shame developed, but I'm pretty sure it's fairly recent.

[Kelly Cleveland]

A cabinet maker in my area made the entire casework for a recreated baroque pipe organ using hand tools. Of course he was given many years and lots of funds, otherwise I think he is a power tool user.

[David Weaver]

I had mentioned this exact thing earlier on with regards to Japanese craftsmen. They have no problem sending out specialized jobs to specialists. In the guitar building world (not necessarily all instruments, but definitely guitars) there is a GREAT stigma to doing this. In order to be a successful builder, you almost need to master several different disciplines, each one of which could really take a lifetime to master. There's a little secret underworld in the biz from people farming out neck work, fret work, finish work, etc, and even ghost builders. It's all very hush hush, no one ever talks about it, and when they're caught it's a big scandal. LOL.

I'm not really sure when this sense of shame developed, but I'm pretty sure it's fairly recent.

It's funny that it's that way in guitars, because in the world of banjos, there's all kinds of stuff being built by other people. Cox Rim, Tony Pass rim, Frank Neat Necks, Huber tone rings (or whoever else is making tone rings), and even aging being done on brass parts separately by someone other than the maker. If you get one of those tricked out banjos with all of the best parts sourced from different places, they cost ​more.

but when I think about guitars, I can't think of anything other than the tuners, pickups and electronics being of a known make.

[Simon MacGowen]

I'd have to see that tilt-top table done in 9 hours start to finish, by one person, to believe it. The base alone with a turned column, profiled and shaped feet dovetailed to the column, tilt mechanism... well, I'd take my hat off to the craftsman who could do that, but I take the point that you get really good, and fast, at something if you do it all the time.

+1 Seeing is believing.

It is always easy to say I finished project so and so in x hours when in fact a lot of prep hours were not counted. If someone says he or she can cut a half blind dovetail faster than Rob Cosman cuts a dovetail joint, I say show it live, don't just show the finished joint. I know several woodworkers who boast (including a few in some woodworking forum) about their work or speed, but few could really support their "achievements" with either pictures or videos. Paul Sellers can really get things done quick and he has shown that in person at tradeshows.... No one believes Tommy Mac or in the power tool arena, Norm Abram could finish their builds in half an hour but neither did they say they could. I find it hard to understand why people who choose to build using hand tools alone want to or try to convince others that hand tools get things done faster than power tools. They simply don't for furniture-makers who do that for a living. Visit a shop where Festool tools are used to build furniture and you'll understand why these people spend so much on power tools: speed, accuracy and efficiency.

Simon

[dan sherman]

The questions I would pose to all include .... Why use handtools?

To me it all comes down to choosing the best tool for the job at hand, some times its a power tool, some times its a hand tool. It's not something I'm conscious of, but if I had to make a list I would say any number of the following things play a part in choosing rather a hand tool or power tool gets used.

1. what tools are in my arsenal
2. how repetitive is the task
3. how safe is the task
4. what level of accuracy is required for the task
5. how long will the task take given the various methods

[Chris Fournier]

When it comes to discussing the efficacy of handtool only work vs machine tools or a combo of both, the raw materials inevitabley start as lumber and the purity the handtoolers espouse starts from there. The heavy lifting has been done. Not really that pure or courageous. The caviat being chair makers, carvers and spoon makers who if hardcore can start from a log.

I took the time once, actually a couple of times to break a log out by hand - for musical instrument purposes. Holy cow. That was some seriously sweaty work. Grain runout was almost nil so that was cool but certainly not a financially viable process.

I love handtools, I love machine tools but most of all I love woodworking and both are critical to my way of work and projects.

A good craftsman, regardless of tools used can produce a work that is free of tooling marks whether they are hand or machine tools. Most often I want my work to be flawless and machines do the heavy lifting so that hand tools can create "perfection". In the end the only thing that a handtool only piece brings to the table is the esoteric value of the exercise or the extrinsic value of the object.

My clients were willing to pay for a finely executed piece, not one of them was willing to pay for me to get there the long way round because I liked hand tools, alot.

[Jim Matthews]

This is like getting your kids to work free for you.

You can do that?
I mean - get your kids to do work?

Mine can't even put away laundry.
They consider the clothes dryer an enameled closet.

[Derek Cohen]

Chris, I can identify with what you write. Of course I am not a professional with the need to sell what I make to pay household expenses, nor do I need to meet a deadline and so efficiency in this regard is not vital. Efficiency and time constraints are still relevant for the amateur, nevertheless. I only get into my shop on weekends. My time there is precious. I will save time (and physical effort - of which I become increasingly conscious as I get older) doing some of the grunt work with machines. I dislike machines for the noise and dust (both of which are not only unpleasant but hazardous to health). I maximise the time I can spend with handtools doing the aspects I like best: shaping, joinery, and finishing. If I was a professional, I would approach woodworking in the same way. This is simply a matter of choosing where hand tools and machinery are best utilised.

One of the questions I ask is whether machinery has a place in building 17th and 18th Century designs? Would the integrity of the design be compromised? Would modern methods of surfacing the wood inevitably alter the final product regardless of the use of hand tools that come after this stage?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

It's obvious I think, when you want to make a true reproduction from a piece of the handtool times, you need to put a good deal of handtool work into it. People weren't concerned with flawless in the less visible parts and the earlier you get the more obvious that is. In the work Follansbee does you find handtool marks everywhere straight down to the riven nature of the boards. They weren't too concerned about tearout either. Later all that became a bit more obscured but you can still find the toolmarks everywhere.

So it is all really about what you want. And it all becomes moot in a few years anyway when we are going to make wooden furniture with 3D printers.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kees

You can leave hand tool marks on surfaces that started life as machine-prepared. Personally, I do not finish surfaces that will never be seen or felt, or do not rely on a finished surface to function.

Let's say that you wished to reproduce a classic Federal cabinet, could you start with machine-prepared boards? The question is whether shortcuts with machines will affect the integrity of an olde piece?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Kees Heiden]

Yes I think you would be hard pressed to see a difference between a machine planed board which is then roughed up with a jackplane, and a board that is prepared with handtools from the start. I also think that most shops in the 18th century got their wood from their suppliers in a quite advanced state of preparation. In the little booklet The Joiner and cabinetmaker, they talk about 1/2" deal. You would be hard pressed to find stock like that today. So i don't think you would be totally out of line when you start your hand tool odiseea after you cut the boards to aproximate size and used the planer to bring them down to an approximate thickness.

When you want to make stuff like these wainscott chairs, or for example a viking chest, or a 17th century warship, and you want to make it authentic, you really have to start with the log.

[Warren Mickley]

The wood had already been milled to rough length, exact thicknesses, and straightened. I completed the one handmade sash in a day. I had the handwork processes dialed in that were used in combination with the power tools. A couple of mortising machines, using the power tool method, saved most of the time for the 22 mortises, and there was some extra time running the ovolo, and rabbets with hand planes. Being my first time, I could have, no doubt, gotten some faster, but I'm pretty sure I could not have completed more than the one sash in a days work, or at least a normal length day.

So comparing the 2-1/2 sash on a slow day with power tools, and 1 sash with hand tools, it gives some sort of a time comparison for making sash.

Tom I would guess the results would be quite different if you made 42 of the sash by hand and then made just one by machine. I find that when I do 50 or 100 of something I can often double the speed over the course of the job. And making just one sash by machine would certainly take a quite a bit because of set ups.

Disability and workman's compensation are extremely expensive in the woodworking industry. In our area shops with high quality machinery usually charge more than twice as much for a worker's labor as they pay the worker. So a guy who could make sash by hand in twice the time as a factory would do just as well working at home. He would not have to drive to work or listen to the noise.

When a guy has invested in a large shop with decent machinery and has invested in machinery skills he has a lot of expensive overhead that is wasted if he sits around doing handwork, so the cost is high. You can't compare his hand work costs with a guy who has specialized in hand work and has a very small investment in plant and tools. And you can't compare the speed of a guy who occasionally does hand work with one who always does hand work.

[Pat Barry]

When a guy has invested in a large shop with decent machinery and has invested in machinery skills he has a lot of expensive overhead that is wasted if he sits around doing handwork, so the cost is high.

True

You can't compare his hand work costs with a guy who has specialized in hand work and has a very small investment in plant and tools.

False - you can compare - that's easy to do, simple business math, its just the results are skewed in this case in favor of the hand tool specialist

And you can't compare the speed of a guy who occasionally does hand work with one who always does hand work.

Certainly true.

[Chris Fournier]

Chris, I can identify with what you write. Of course I am not a professional with the need to sell what I make to pay household expenses, nor do I need to meet a deadline and so efficiency in this regard is not vital. Efficiency and time constraints are still relevant for the amateur, nevertheless. I only get into my shop on weekends. My time there is precious. I will save time (and physical effort - of which I become increasingly conscious as I get older) doing some of the grunt work with machines. I dislike machines for the noise and dust (both of which are not only unpleasant but hazardous to health). I maximise the time I can spend with handtools doing the aspects I like best: shaping, joinery, and finishing. If I was a professional, I would approach woodworking in the same way. This is simply a matter of choosing where hand tools and machinery are best utilised.

One of the questions I ask is whether machinery has a place in building 17th and 18th Century designs? Would the integrity of the design be compromised? Would modern methods of surfacing the wood inevitably alter the final product regardless of the use of hand tools that come after this stage?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I am not much of a professional right now as I am doing other work for bread and water these days.

Now free of the profit motive I totally agree with you and I too see the hand tool work as the most enjoyable work in a project. Even when making $$$ in the shop I was pretty hand tool intensive - guitars especially but that's no surprise. As soon as I learned to use hand tools, they were my fave!

Perhaps more than most in this forum though, I really enjoy using my machine tools as well and truthfully when I am hewing away and it sounds like industry and processed parts are being stacked I see an old line shaft shop in my head, the leather drive belts slapping and the sound of slower speed cutters being used in a dim light to process stacks of parts. I feel a connection to the ingenuity and productivity of these old shops, I like that. Google Ben Thresher's Mill for a really enjoyable time checking out an old shop and some projects - machine and hand tool being made. Utilitarian pieces made for farm use.

I think that there are many ways to make reproductions and still use machines in some phases of the project - you could just never let the machine have the last pass on a wood surface. I also think that careful lumber selection would play a great role in the authenticity of the final piece.