How many professional woodworkers using no power tools? ....

[Steve Voigt]

A separate point:

The discussion so far has been entirely focused on Western woodworking. On youtube, you can find plenty of videos of people in Asia making stuff, I assume it's professionally, entirely by hand. David posted a link the other day of the John Majors video of Japanese toolmakers. As far as I know, there are still a lot of independent toolmakers making planes, chisels, saws, etc mostly or entirely by hand. And furniture makers and temple builders, too. Maybe someone who knows their way around Japanese woodworking could post some names or links.
Wilbur Pan posted something on woodnet that I really liked. he said "But the ironic thing is this: if you are at all interested in traditional ways of doing things, then Japanese tools should be right up your alley. Although these days western hand tools are being made to a very high level of quality, they are not being made in ways that maintain traditional toolmaking methods. Japanese tools still are."

[David Weaver]

Yeah on Brown, Fidgen and Follansbee. Follansbee is capable at working at a fairly rapid rate, but he does sell videos and teach a bunch of courses. I don't think there's anything wrong with what he does, but it's not seemingly as rare as someone doing work and making money just off of the work.

You're right, it's going nowhere, but that's where most of my topics go. My original point, or one of them, was triggered by warren suggesting to rob that a double iron plane sounds simpler to use than the LV BU planes. I've never used an LN BU plane, so I can't comment, but when I had a LA jack and hadn't been woodworking that long, it was probably the easiest plane for me to use and not get tearout. I was lazy enough back then that I thought it was a pain to adjust anything or change irons - I just wanted to put a plane together and ram it across wood and get a shiny surface. I had stanley planes at the time, too but didn't use them for any final surfaces.

If you'd have asked me back then, I would've for sure told you that there was no reason to have stanley planes if you have the money to buy premium planes. That was the general gist most places online, too. Harder iron, close the mouth, steeper angle, squarer sides, higher grit to sharpen. Is my advice getting to be the same as I thought other experienced advice was back then? I'm not a professional and never will be, but I'm starting to prefer the stuff some professionals prefer, and I remember how unhelpful I though their advice was when I started, because it wasn't met with instant success.

And I guess the add on is still the same question, does the level of experience and desire for speed (efficiency) push you to use something different than "the best tools you can afford", or whatever other spiffy comment some blogger has made in the last several years?

Strangely enough, one of the things that changed my satisfaction in the shop the most was a comment that I saw made by the wife of an ailing japanese woodworker or tool maker (can't remember which). Someone had visited him to interview him, and his wife said (paraphrasing) when he left, that "no matter what you do, make sure you do it in rhythm. Rhythm is so important". I thought that was an odd comment at the time. There's fast or slow, etc, but what sense does that make? Now I make a conscious effort to set a pace in the shop and continue it and though it seems like I'm not working as fast (because I'm not hurrying), I spend a lot less time standing around staring at the project overanalyzing what to do next. I think it's a good tip. Maybe not a great one for beginners, though, because it could be confused with "just keep moving and don't worry about screwing up", and have people ruining nice stuff.

[Charles Bender]

David,

Up until the time I started a school 6 years ago, then took a job with Popular Woodworking Magazine a little over a year ago, I made my living solely from building furniture (a good 25 years or so). I did so with the use of both power and hand tools. Most of the woodworkers I knew to that point were full-time professionals as well and I don't know any that made a living working entirely with hand tools. Even the Windsor chair makers I know (some of which make amazingly accurate and convincing reproductions of period chairs) used some power tools. I always used more hand tools than most of the guys I knew, but for most it was a matter of economics. If you use only hand tools it's just hard to compete with those that employ power tools. The time value of money comes into play.

[David Weaver]

Wilbur Pan posted something on woodnet that I really liked. he said "But the ironic thing is this: if you are at all interested in traditional ways of doing things, then Japanese tools should be right up your alley. Although these days western hand tools are being made to a very high level of quality, they are not being made in ways that maintain traditional toolmaking methods. Japanese tools still are."

Well, to some extent they are. There are daiya still making stamped dais, but most of the entry level planes that are out there (in the $250 range) don't seem to have much similarity to the hand made stuff made by makers like mosaku or some of the earlier planes. A lot of them appear to be made from prelaminated stock, stamped out, given an identical design and then heat treated yielding an OK iron, but nothing spectacular like you will hear something like stan described. A lot of the higher end tools are still made with the same "old time" care, but there is also a lot of dressy looking expensive stuff that just ends up being ho hum. it's awfully hard for us over here to get good advice from a hardware dealer to tell us which is which.

There's a big leap made in wilbur's asssertion, though, and that is that people here want to do traditional japanese things. I still have some nice planes (fewer than I used to), but have cast them aside for the penultimate work on anything because they:
1) take more total sharpening time than western tools per square of wood thicknessed, dimensioned, whatever
2) are far less convenient to set the double iron on (far far) and then adjust as time goes on. That's important on a penultimate step if you want to keep rhythm going, and can only be cancelled out with familiarity with exactly what you're working with.

When I think of pace and speed, and subtle speed, Hisao on that video that i posted (Hisao is now deceased) embodies exactly what I was talking about. I doubt anyone could make a decent dai of similar quality level with power tools remotely as fast as hisao can make them. Watching him makes me want to "get good at something", and make something good rather than just making a lot of OK things and moving on to the next. The dumb thing is the only thing I really like to make is planes, but I have plenty of room for improvement there. I may just start making planes and give them away, or maybe sell them for the cost of the materials in them.

That will make my advice even more irrelevant!

[John Coloccia]

- The very best example I can think of is W. Patrick Edwards. He uses no power tools, but he's in a sub-field, like chairmaking or luthiery, that is well-suited to handwork. Spend a little time looking at his marquetry and you will want to sell your tools on ebay and start drinking the proceeds.

Bingo...this right here. For example, you could reasonable build a guitar, especially an acoustic guitar, with absolutely no power tools. It wouldn't even take that much longer than using power tools. For example, I'm having a hard time thinking what I use power tools for on an acoustic. Out of convenience, I use a bandsaw to make some rough cuts. I use a thickness sander to precisely thickness things like the plates and the sides. I use a table saw to cut my fret slots. I might use a router to make some cuts. Ultimately, though, there's nothing here that isn't easy to simply do by hand, and it wouldn't even take that much longer.

I see things like chairs being very similar. I think power tools are generally best suited for things which have lots of flat surfaces, or turning.

It's also true that the things that have flat, or at least straight, surfaces are GENERALLY the things that actually pay the rent and keep the lights on. Cabinets, architectural details, etc. It seems crazy to me to build a business around hand tool work for the sake of hand tool work, unless you're trying to make a living by blogging and teaching.

I'd never heard of Tony Konovalov. Assuming that his book is not bringing in a significant amount, he's now the only one I know of that only makes a living building furniture and things like that by hand.

[David Weaver]

One other comment - it's interesting that if you dig up a japanese plane from the 1950s, they are considered vintage and fairly old. They look like current planes, but they are often a touch softer and with simpler steel - probably because they were sharpening on natural stones when they were made (alex gilmore had a rash of them and hardness tested all of the irons - they were all in the 60-62 hardness range).

What do we think of a traditional western tool from the 1950s? Marples planes from the 50s come to mind, we call them "modern". I don't consider even a plane made in 1850 to be that old, because they are mature in terms of development and have often lasted very well. My JT brown jointer is older than that, it could be as early as 1820, and I consider it a fine plane that could easily last another 200 years.

I've never seen or used a japanese tool that is remotely close to that age.

The japanese also have an advantage in that westerners seem to love the tools and razors. How many japanese woodworkers are buying our vintage tools? I don't know. As far as the razors go (kamisori), I remember someone asking if they could get a kamisori in japan (on a shave forum) and someone living there said "probably not, most of those are sold in foreign markets, not many poeple in japan actually buy them". We know that's not true of all of the tools, but we don't know which ones are popular in country unless we pry information from someone like stan or stu. Otherwise, we might be getting the tex-mex version of tools - whatever harima has found to sell well over here.

[Daniel Rode]

Along the lines you your question a similar one occurs to me. How many people would start a woodworking business now to support themselves using only hand tools?

For example, when I consider running a business to feed my family, I can't image how I would justify the time and effort to thickness stock with a hand plane. Even if my business model is authentic reproductions, I can make the final pass with hand tools and everything else with fast power tools.

It's a demanding way to make a living today even with the efficiency of power tools. Outside of some specific niche, I can't see how one would survive without power tools.

As a hobbyist, I'm under no pressure to be efficient or profitable, so I can choose to work how I want to. As woodworking professional, I would not have such freedom.

[John Coloccia]

One other comment - it's interesting that if you dig up a japanese plane from the 1950s, they are considered vintage and fairly old. They look like current planes, but they are often a touch softer and with simpler steel - probably because they were sharpening on natural stones when they were made (alex gilmore had a rash of them and hardness tested all of the irons - they were all in the 60-62 hardness range).

What do we think of a traditional western tool from the 1950s? Marples planes from the 50s come to mind, we call them "modern". I don't consider even a plane made in 1850 to be that old, because they are mature in terms of development and have often lasted very well. My JT brown jointer is older than that, it could be as early as 1820, and I consider it a fine plane that could easily last another 200 years.

I've never seen or used a japanese tool that is remotely close to that age.

The japanese also have an advantage in that westerners seem to love the tools and razors. How many japanese woodworkers are buying our vintage tools? I don't know. As far as the razors go (kamisori), I remember someone asking if they could get a kamisori in japan (on a shave forum) and someone living there said "probably not, most of those are sold in foreign markets, not many poeple in japan actually buy them". We know that's not true of all of the tools, but we don't know which ones are popular in country unless we pry information from someone like stan or stu. Otherwise, we might be getting the tex-mex version of tools - whatever harima has found to sell well over here.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've watched a lot of videos on various Japanese crafts. Not just woodworking, by the way. Perhaps I'm over generalizing things, but a common theme seems to be that it's usual for multiple hands to touch a project before it's done. For example, when you make a sword, one guy alloys the metal, another guy forms it. Then another guy sharpens it, and yet another guy wraps the hilt. In many of the woodworking videos I see, the guy is always using chisels, planes and saws, but the stock always appears to be somewhat prepared and there's often some power tools mulling around in the background.

It's a different mentality than we typically have here. In the US, we seem to have a mentality that we should start from a tree, make lumber, dry it, surface it, etc etc etc etc. I think that's absolutely crazy. I even see it sometimes where people will spend all sorts of time and money making questionable jigs when they could just take the piece down to the local mill, pay $15, and have them crank it out easily and safety on equipment designed for it.

I think when you have the mentality that you don't have to do EVERYTHING yourself, it opens up a world of possibility, especially for hand-tool work. If you have to make some cabinets (not kitchen cabinets...an armoire, for example), and you start with reasonably straight and sized wood, then I'll wager that someone COULD reasonably scratch out some sort of existence doing things like this. If you're starting with big chunks of rough wood, as I think most are thinking when you talk about doing everything by hand, then I think it's crazy.

[David Weaver]

I think that's true for a lot of makers, maybe except for the largest (like Tsunesaburo, I believe, has a guy or guys in house to do their ledge dais). But for other makers, any stamped dai that I've received has been from a guy who is not making any metal tool parts. I've gotten several nimura dais even on run of the mill inexpensive ($250) planes, which is a little bit unusual, but I think it had more to do with the seller being a friend of the daiya (or whatever you call a guy who makes dais).

Chisel handles are available individualy, so are hoops and ferrules, so I'd assume a lot of chisel makers buy those from makers. Same with knife makers, most buy their steel prelaminated, and I can't imagine they're making the cheap traditional handles - it's not worth their time when they can make valuable knives. Maybe on the very expensive knives that have hand sculpted handles they are making them.

I have gotten into the mud with Larry before, but I have suggested that they might be able to make double iron planes if they didn't have to make the iron and cap iron, and they could use forged irons, too, instead of tapered modern steel. However, I have no clue who would blacksmith such a thing for a reasonable rate. maybe if there was enough demand to keep a guy with a power hammer busy full time, someone could do that (the last time that was suggested, it was either me or george and I think larry received it as our accusation that he couldn't make a double iron, but I don't think he could do it efficiently like someone who only makes double irons. It's maybe one of the most comical displays of discussion about whether or not it costs more to make a double iron plane, because nobody these days is making a vintage tapered iron for a reasonable cost. George mentioned that the blacksmiths were making them at CW, but that's a subsidized operation, and they were using 1070, which doesn't really make a suitable iron).

Anyway, that's a good point. getting the market is challenge number one, though. At least from what I'd gather, and like everything I've come across, except for a few well heeled clients, it seems like things always devolve into price discussions and corners would be cut very soon.

[Zach Dillinger]

I have other income, of course, but I do sell my work and speed / accuracy is my 100% concern because it dictates a lot of the look of the furniture I am interested in. If I didn't have any other income, I would probably starve even at my pace because I haven't the first clue how to market my work, or I would be forced to make a bunch of stuff I don't want to make to pay the bills. Being a good businessman is a completely separate skillset.

[Brian Ashton]

By "woodworkers" I'm going to assume you mean furniture makers. I've met quite a few, I've yet to meet one who could survive using hand tools only. That said, hand tool or power tools, they all had one thing in common- poverty. Most had a spouse how made it possible to do what they do. I can only think of one who made a living being a woodworker and her income wasn't much above what was needed to survive.

Pretty much what I was thinking. In 32 years of being in the business I've not seen anyone make a liveable wage off purely furniture making without any external subsidies of any kind, power tools or not.

[David Weaver]

There's more to make than furniture, though. carvings, architectural restoration work, etc. There have been a few furniture makers around here. About 10 years ago, someone had a big installation of modernish furniture made of curly maple and purpleheart (which is a combination I just can't take), though I don't know if they sold much. There's someone with a booth at the local tradesperson's show who is making 18th century stuff, too, but he's right out of school. I don't know if he's still going or not.

If anyone could do it, I'd think they'd have to be a jack of all trades type, and develop a pretty long client list with folks who have specific needs.

[Graham Haydon]

"How many professional woodworkers use no or generally no power tools?"

From a Joinery (Windows, doors, stairs etc) point of view I don't know of anyone who uses no power. With the larger sections normally employed it would be difficult to make a living unless you could find a willing patron. I have yet to meet one. From the point of view of planes all of us have a Bailey #4 and then there is the mix of a #5, a few block planes, shoulder planes etc. These are mainly used for adjusting. I cant recall ever hand planning an item to a finish apart from when I was at college.


I think it would be really tough to take the "hand tool only" approach when setting up a business. A realistic review of a business plan would be needed before trying it.

[Frank Martin]

I don't know anyone who does it by hand only. Also, other than some things where power tools don't add much value, I wonder why would anyone do it that way anyway in a business setting where every additional labor hour adds to the cost unless there is more value generated. I think there are other ways to add value, such as unique design, etc., than purely hand made. I do this strictly as a hobby, even then I doubt the best and fastest hand plane user can dimension and square a board faster than I can using power tools. I use hand tools as a supplement to power tools, not instead. Of course like using them as they are more fun and quiet, but I don't see them as a replacement in a business context in general other than potentially some super niche market (e.g., the marquetry example given above).

[Simon MacGowen]

Good point by Chuck here about the efficient use of time. I do know a couple of guys who would like to say they are hand tool only woodworkers...80 to 90% of the time may I say and they are not professional woodworkers. They build small things, spoons, small boxes, etc. To build furniture on a wide scale (cabinets, chairs, beds, and desk and tables, etc.) using hand tools alone to make a living is workable only to those who have other income or wealth to support them. Making a guitar all by hand tools is not the same as making three full size desks or conference tables on commission.

A one-time piece for a contest or what not (commissioned piece) is fine with using hand tools only; to do it for a living, there aren't many of them in today's world. All well-known furniture makers who are also contributors in FWM use power tools in their day job. Of course, Chris Schwarz -- a relentless promoter of the use of hand tools -- himself uses his tablesaw, cordless drill etc. freely...and so did Tage Frid, George Nakashima, Sam Maloof and James Krenov.

Simon