CS about capirons

[Charles Bjorgen]

My copy of the Woodcraft reprint of "Planecraft" has the following information on setting the cap iron on page 43:
For rough work Cap Iron 1/32 in. to 1/16 in. from edge
For finishing work. ". " 1/64 in. ". "
For Hard Woods
With irregular grain. as close as you can get it to cutting edge

This book was originally printed in 1934, revised and enlarged in 1950. The copy I bought from Woodcraft has a 1997 copyright and I probably got it a year or two after that. It was written, I believe, for Record Ridgeway Tools, makers of Record planes. The book has been mentioned in the various forums before. As with so many others, I didn't pay much attention to the above until the Kato info came out.

[bridger berdel]

As a young man just starting out using planes I had a pretty good explanation of chipbreaker function given to me. I used planes as a pretty regular part of my toolbox, and struggled with the chipbreaker. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't and mostly I could not figure out why. I sharpened with a medium arkansas stone for the most part and got my tools pretty sharp, but they could have been sharper and that is likely a factor. My main jack plane was a transitional, so there were limits to the fettling too. Mostly if I wanted a nice surface I would get it as sharp as I could, set it for a very fine shaving and figure on scraping or sanding afterward. Straight razors upped my sharpening game a full level and having a more complete understanding of and practical methods for using the chipbreaker have made planes much better tools in my hands.

[John Coloccia]

CS:
In addition to my lecture on nails, I’m also giving a talk on “double irons” – aka “cap irons,” “back irons” or “chipbreakers.”
While a few people on the forums have burned this topic in effigy, I have found that a reasoned, historical-based discussing of this 18th-century device helps students immensely. Most woodworkers don’t have the patience to wade into the nasty discussions about double irons to extract the useful bits.
This lecture is about the useful bits. (And why Stanley needs to spanked for almost ruining the technology for us.)

He's not talking about us, is he?
I wonder what Stanley did wrong according to our friend Chris.

I've met Chris a couple of times now. He seems like a very nice, amicable fellow. I'd enjoy talking woodworking with him over a beer. That said, he's essentially a professional blogger, and he also seems to have this annoying habit of pretending to be above the fray by entering the conversation, poking fun at the guys doing the heavy lifting, and then announcing, "I'm above the fray!" Meh.

I've stopped reading magazines, and I've certainly stopped watching videos and reading blogs by people who are mainly professional video makers and writers. I've found, hands down, the most useful and accurate information is usually right here on SMC, written by real people with real life experience, and many of whom are pros or serious hobbyists.

My $.02.

[Jim Matthews]

I was under the impression that the modern cap iron, with it's incorporated adjustment levers was an outgrowth
of spring making techniques, and was a way to get thinner and tougher steels to cooperate.

It seems to me, all things being equal, that it would take less time to sharpen a thinner blade.

There's just so much about the Bailey design that advanced the art of holding a blade
beyond the woodies I favor. Even if the cap iron is improperly set, adjusting a blade
with one installed is much easier for the novice user than the faff of setting a wood body plane.

Mr. Bailey, like the inventors of cable ties and flush toilets are nearly anonymous,
while their genius is ubiquitous.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've met Chris a couple of times now. He seems like a very nice, amicable fellow. I'd enjoy talking woodworking with him over a beer. That said, he's essentially a professional blogger, and he also seems to have this annoying habit of pretending to be above the fray by entering the conversation, poking fun at the guys doing the heavy lifting, and then announcing, "I'm above the fray!" Meh.

I've stopped reading magazines, and I've certainly stopped watching videos and reading blogs by people who are mainly professional video makers and writers. I've found, hands down, the most useful and accurate information is usually right here on SMC, written by real people with real life experience, and many of whom are pros or serious hobbyists.

My $.02.

I agree completely. I feel like he spends a great deal of time researching the subject, which would no doubt involve SMC, then quickly discounts the value of places like SMC as being a place of perpetual argument without much insight to offer.

Specialized forums are one of the few places you can gain worthwhile insight on topics like those covered by this forum. Where else would you find a great deal of insight on such obscure topics?

[David Weaver]

It's easier just to not read anything he writes it really wouldn't make any difference in what we do as far as woodworking or learning, and if we spent the same amount of time actually reading information from accomplished woodworkers, we'd probably be better off. Pick up the phone and call george or post a picture for george and warren to opine on if there is a question of actual relevance. It's far more valuable if you can get through George's jokes on the phone

Bloggers constantly write posts to try to keep people interested in whatever their gimmick is. it's not as if they withhold posting until they actually have something really substantive, most of the posts are about nearly nothing of use to anyone. We do the same here posting, but at least it's a conversation - which is far more enjoyable.

John C makes my point exactly, which is what got us on the bloggers' poo poo lists a long time ago - when the whole cap iron thing started, we had a long post where I wanted to make sure it was known that the push came from forum discussion, and not from a blogger (at the time I was getting PMs from people telling me that the bloggers could help me understand the cap iron if I needed to learn.....after ellis already helped me publish an article on woodcentral). Forum discussion is free for the taking and open for the offering by lots of people like me who have no obligation to post anything and who make no money or promote nothing for it. Or George, who bends over backwards to try to make sure people get accurate information and get a sense for design, despite the fact that he gets nothing in return (George's contributions and opinions are, of course, worth much more than mine - but he is no less accessible than an enthusiastic amateur, freely giving precise, experienced and proven advice that is better than what a lot of people are paying for). So if the bloggers don't like the forums....well, we don't need them to, we really don't even need them to blog.

We don't need them to connect us to manufacturers, either. Some of those guys are right here. You can send Rob Lee a PM and he answers them. You can pick up the phone and call LN or any of the other makers of stuff. We have it pretty good.

[Sean Hughto]

Alright, I gotta speak up for Chris. Like everyone else, he is limited by his experience at any given moment, and, therefore, can be wrong about stuff. (David, you too have had ideas about woodworking and details of using tools, evolve, no?)

Chris is sincere and honest. He has done as much as anyone to contribute to the current renaissance in handtools and handtool woodworking. He puts out excellent high quality books by some of the greatest woodworkers around. I personally have gained a lot as a hobbiest from his insights and tools and techniques he has shared in his writings. I would miss him greatly if he were not around making all these contributions all the time.

[David Weaver]

(David, you too have had ideas about woodworking and details of using tools, evolve, no?)

of course. I'm pretty careful not to promote anything to anyone though, just my opinions. I also recognize the pecking order and respect it (that is, that information comes from the highest quality source first, and you only go down the ladder if you have to). I didn't learn that right away, but I haven't been woodworking as long as most people.

If I were a professional blogger and amateur woodworker, I'd be wholly open to criticism about my mistakes, even if people called me a hack. You can call me a hack right now, even in my wooden plane thread if you'd like I wouldn't be bothered by it.

(in fact, I'd quite like it if folks did and offered real criticism of the few things that I show on here when I'm making them. Rather than get upset, I would try to figure out if there was something you know that I don't, and I'd try to get it out of you).

[John Coloccia]

Chris is sincere and honest.

And I'll add he also seems to be very nice and gracious, at least the couple of times I ran into him.

[george wilson]

That is how you make progress,David. I am the same way,though some might not think so. It depends upon how really wrong I know the other person is. And,I do have many years of my own learning to draw conclusions from.

[David Weaver]

And I'll add he also seems to be very nice and gracious, at least the couple of times I ran into him.

I think there is a divide that's based on that. Some people like both:
* hearing information from a nice person who gives OK information but who is entertaining and they feel like they'd like to have a beer with
* getting information from professionals who don't live to give it out, but who are gruff and who may divulge something if it seems worth while (generally they have far better than OK information)

I guess I never get excited about the first point. Some people do, and some people only do, choosing to communicate only with folks that they like. I just want the most accurate answer, or enough background to decide on an answer when a reasoned professional would provide several and say they are all OK and preference is a matter of opinion. Someone who cares only about the quality of the answer and doesn't advance personalities is likely to draw heat from the type of person who puts "nice people" above all other things. That's OK.

[John Coloccia]

I think there is a divide that's based on that. Some people like both:
* hearing information from a nice person who gives OK information but who is entertaining and they feel like they'd like to have a beer with
* getting information from professionals who don't live to give it out, but who are gruff and who may divulge something if it seems worth while (generally they have far better than OK information)

I guess I never get excited about the first point. Some people do, and some people only do, choosing to communicate only with folks that they like. I just want the most accurate answer, or enough background to decide on an answer when a reasoned professional would provide several and say they are all OK and preference is a matter of opinion. Someone who cares only about the quality of the answer and doesn't advance personalities is likely to draw heat from the type of person who puts "nice people" above all other things. That's OK.

Well, I'll tell you something, David. I haven't had a subscription to a magazine...ANY magazine...in over 20 years. In retrospect, the only ones I had that were ever worth a darn was a couple of subscriptions to some R/C Airplane magazines. Those articles were generally written by hobbyists, for hobbyists. You know, normal working stiffs like us that are just looking for some practical tips or hints for the few minutes of free time we have every week.

I think most people would be very surprised watching a real pro work. I'd highly encourage everyone to take a class someday, but not just these organized woodworking school type classes (though they're great too!). If you could somehow get with a local guy and figure out a way to even just watch him work, I'd advise bringing a notebook and a couple of pens because you'll have so many moments when you think, "Oh my God...that's so simple. Why haven't I ever seen that anywhere??", you'll struggle to remember them all.

[Warren Mickley]

Chris Schwarz:
While a few people on the forums have burned this topic in effigy, I have found that a reasoned, historical-based discussing of this 18th-century device helps students immensely. Most woodworkers don’t have the patience to wade into the nasty discussions about double irons to extract the useful bits.
This lecture is about the useful bits. (And why Stanley needs to spanked for almost ruining the technology for us.)

There has been a reasoned and historical based discussion of this topic on various fora for over seven years. There has been historical and present day evidence presented by Todd Hughes, by me, by Steve Elliott, Chutaro Kato, Gary Blum, Bob Strawn, David Weaver, Bill Tindall, Kees van der Heiden, Wilbur Pan, and Jeff Burks (and more) For years Chris was denying or denigrating our testimony. It is insulting that he now compares himself to the source of this knowledge and paints himself as the voice of reason, knowledge and historical perspective.

Stanley needs to spanked for almost ruining the technology for us? Schwarz certainly tried to ruin it also.

[David Weaver]

Stanley made the easiest to use cap iron that's ever been made, and put an easy to sharpen and easy to grind iron with it. The plane design is genius in that it solves every thing in wooden planes that can be a little bit more difficult or subtle to make, keep in check, etc.

[Dave Anderson NH]

Perspective..... we all have one and it comes from what we hear, what we see, and what we read. The difficulty comes from getting enough basic and accurate knowledge that we gain the ability to filter the information from our sources and decide whether someone has provided info we wish to investigate further, whether they are talking through their hat, or if the veracity is somewhere in between. We all have to start somewhere on this journey and my personal opinion is that the internet is probably the worst place to start for a brand spanking new beginner. It is too easy to get misled by bogus or partially correct information which leads the person down the wrong path. To my mind, better places to start are learning from someone with experience and reading books older than the 1930s.

Like John, I too avoid the blogs and have cut back on, and will soon eliminate, my last magazine subscription. That is not to say I don't have more to learn. I certainly do and always will. I also have cut back on my internet time as I have become bored with the constant repetition of the same topics over the last 15+ years and find my limited time more productively spent either making things or learning face to face with teachers and mentors. Perhaps I've become jaded, but I think not. I just have found different sources for good information and inspiration. I'm geographically fortunate in this respect and realize others lack this good fortune. I just issue the warning that particularly beginners need to read critically on the net and carefully vet the source.