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Thread: unplugging my workshop

  1. #1

    unplugging my workshop

    Well not exactly unplugging but I have decided I want to go the handsaw route for timber and only use my table saw for sheet goods. I have an assortment of hand saws for joinery but need to purchase one or more hand saws for ripping. My questions are:
    - what length of saw to get for ripping long boards 3-6 feet, assume 8/4 thickness. Am I better off with a 24, 26 or 28 inch blade length? If the recommendation is for different lengths what are the advantages of one length over the other?
    - what TPI for hardwoods, 41/2, 5 1/2 or > ? I usually use poplar for a secondary wood so would that take a different TPI than say walnut or wenge just to pick two different hardnesses?
    - who manufacturers the recommended saws? I would prefer to buy new saws and will order from anywhere in the world for quality.

    I have a lot of saw sharpening questions too but they can wait until I sort out the right rip saw questions.

    Thanks in advance for advice.

    Larry

  2. #2
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    Your appreciation of certain species of woods may make a drastic change at this point as well. I love walnut, even more after working it with hand tools. Wenge is awful to work with handtools in my experience. I felt as if my handplanes were swearing at me after working a piece of wenge.

    I have a 7 TPI panel saw for ripping, and anything longer than a foot or two and I'm wishing for a much bigger tooth and a very aggressive filing.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  3. #3
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    Howdy Larry and welcome to the cave by the Creek. Your profile doesn't indicate your location. If you are in my area you are welcome to come over and try a few of my saws.

    For my needs I have pretty much settled on a 6ppi rip saw. It is just an old Disston that came my way. The length would have to be measured. The fewer teeth per inch does speed one's sawing a bit. It also increases the effort needed.

    One of the determinations for length is how tall the sawyer. In particular how high the knee is from the ground. This determines the height of shop made sawing benches. Too long of a saw may hit the deck during enthusiastic sawing.

    Also to consider is how much saw can you push. If your reach can only push 24 inches, there is no advantage to a 28 inch saw.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #4
    Larry, probably 26 or 28 inches if you're of average height. It's nice to have the longer stroke of 28" saws, but if you're not working at a height where they don't hit the floor, that's no good. If you're anywhere over low 5' range in height, 26" should be a problem.

    I keep a lot of rip saws, but in theory on rough lumber, I would use a 5 1/2 point saw if I had to rip stuff from 4/4 through 8/4, and I'd keep it in good sharpness, and then have one other saw in the 7 or 8 tpi range filed rip for finish cuts. A saw like that will rip hardwoods surprisingly well if it's kept sharp, but not like you'd want if you're ripping larger hardwoods.

    Nobody that I'm aware of makes saws that are equals of the vintage saws, especially in longer saws. If you are going to recondition saws, I would focus on the quality of the plate and the saw and how much saw there is (if you can get a nice full plate without pitting, that's what you'd like to have). Disston 7s, D8s, #12s and any manufacturerers versions of the same from the same era (say 1890 to around WWII) should make good saws, and they'll be cheaper than a new good quality saw would be.

    If someone else reconditions the saw for you and sharpens it, the price goes up by a factor of 3 or more. That's just the way it goes.

    I wouldn't use wenge as a hand tool wood.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Larry, probably 26 or 28 inches if you're of average height. It's nice to have the longer stroke of 28" saws, but if you're not working at a height where they don't hit the floor, that's no good. If you're anywhere over low 5' range in height, 26" should be a problem.

    I keep a lot of rip saws, but in theory on rough lumber, I would use a 5 1/2 point saw if I had to rip stuff from 4/4 through 8/4, and I'd keep it in good sharpness, and then have one other saw in the 7 or 8 tpi range filed rip for finish cuts. A saw like that will rip hardwoods surprisingly well if it's kept sharp, but not like you'd want if you're ripping larger hardwoods.

    Nobody that I'm aware of makes saws that are equals of the vintage saws, especially in longer saws. If you are going to recondition saws, I would focus on the quality of the plate and the saw and how much saw there is (if you can get a nice full plate without pitting, that's what you'd like to have). Disston 7s, D8s, #12s and any manufacturerers versions of the same from the same era (say 1890 to around WWII) should make good saws, and they'll be cheaper than a new good quality saw would be.
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post

    If someone else reconditions the saw for you and sharpens it, the price goes up by a factor of 3 or more. That's just the way it goes.

    I wouldn't use wenge as a hand tool wood.


    Larry, I applaud your decision to go the handsaw route. With a little practice, I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised about the speed and accuracy you can achieve with sharp, quality saws.

    +1 to David's comments. A 7PPI rip saw is a better choice for very hard tropical woods than the more standard 5-6 PPI, Plus is ideal for ripping thinner stock like drawer components etc.

    Don't be discouraged by the lack of currently manufactured quality handsaw's. Unlike some other hand tools where reasonable people can disagree about the relative merits of vintage tools versus newly manufactured tools from today's boutique take toolmakers, when it comes to handsaw's vintage is definitely, 100% better and the way to go, not due to sentimentality about the benefits of "the old ways", just as a matter of simple performance and functionality.

    There are a number of professional restorers/sharpeners on the web where you can buy top-quality vintage handsaw's tuned up and ready to go. I have personal experience with and highly recommend: Bad Ax, Pete Tartans vintage saws.com and Darrell Weirsold saws restored.

    If you've never sharpened a handsaw before, I would encourage you to consider buying at least one from a reliable pro-that is sharp, set up and ready to go. That will give you a good example of what you're shooting for when you sharpen your own.


    Don't be afraid to dive in – you are going to like it!

    Best, Mike

  6. #6
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    Hi Larry,

    The above comments are good advise.

    Count one more for the vintage saws. Like the above, I think that GOOD vintage saws are the best way to go, and like the older Disstons, simply because I know them. The #12s on Ebay that have been dolled up are pretty pricy, but it is also fairly difficult to find one that is in reasonably restorable at a reasonable price. They are usually very very good saws, folks that have them say.

    That said I think the D-8s are excellent saws, will do you well, and they are a lot more reasonably priced. I have several of them, and have been please with them. I would try to get one from the 1930s or earlier. I have doubts that any modern saw is as good as a good D-8, and have extreme doubts that any are better. Again, try to buy one in good shape, not corroded with any thing but a light surface rust or patina. I wouldn't buy one that is pitted. I try to buy a nice one to restore, but some folks like the restoration already done. One in nice shape should be much cheaper than one of the better brands of modern saws, and again, I think it will be as good or better than almost any modern saw.

    With regard to length, I like a 28, and want plenty of width to the blade, this helps make the saw stiffer, a highly desirable trait. Such is a heavier saw, because of the width, but that also makes it stiffer, which aides in cutting true. Again, I like a 26 or preferably a 28 for ripping. The longer saw lets you take longer sawing strokes, a good thing. I don't have a thumb hole handle rip saw, but think it would be good to have one, particularly for long or heavy rips.

    I am not a big guy, being barely over 5'8", but even with my horses, I don't hit the ground sawing with a 28 blade. I do pay close attention when sawing though. I used a rip saw for many years because I did not have a table saw, and definitely can cut truer with a rip saw than I can with a circular saw. Long boards are also easier to cut true with a rip saw than with a table saw, in my experience.

    Even today, if I don't have a lot of ripping to do, I get our the handsaw. It doesn't make noise, and doesn't throw fine sawdust into the air that you end up breathing. If I have a lot of ripping to do, with lumber of reasonable length I use the table saw. If I am ripping a long board I use the hand saw, because I do better work with it and it is easier to control.

    I use a 4 1/2 and a 7 TPI saw, and like the 7 much better. I had a saw retoothed to the 7, and have not regretted it. It does saw more easily than my 4 1/2, but it is a better saw, and in great shape, so I don't know how much of a factor the quality is in that respect. I originally had it retoothed to a 7 to use for finish work, but now think 7 is a better all around toothing than is the 4 1/2. It saws more easily, leaves a smoother cut, and is easier to control.

    Some of the guy have suggested resharpening an 8 crosscut to an 8 rip as a quick way to get to the rip, and say that the 8 is a good TPI for rip saws also. I hope to try such some day.

    Take good care of the saw, keep it waxed to protect it from rust, and use candle wax or petroleum wax to make sawing easier. A good rip saw will last most of us for many many years.

    Regards,

    Stew
    Last edited by Stew Denton; 09-28-2014 at 4:10 PM.

  7. #7
    thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I appreciate the advice and most importantly the explanations behind the advice. Now I will search for one or more vintage saws.

    larry

  8. #8
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    Don't get talked into a less than aggressive geometry for a rip saw, or a hybrid toothed one. It doesn't take long at all to learn to use one that will go ahead and remove some wood along a line. The D8's are hard to beat with the thumbhole for the other hand. A 4/1/2, and a 6 or 7 should have you covered until you might decide you want something a little different after becoming good friends with the first two.

  9. #9
    Mike Allen didn't mention that he sometimes sells fully restored saws. They are beautiful and excellent. They cut like a dream. I have three of his. I would send him a message if you are interested, he probably has some he could sell you. The guy has a saw problem!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Temins View Post
    thanks to everyone who responded to my post. I appreciate the advice and most importantly the explanations behind the advice. Now I will search for one or more vintage saws. larry
    Mike Allen is too modest to mention that he rehabilitates older saws to perform as well, or better than many modern saws.
    I've got a D-23 from him that flies though 8/4 Maple, the hardest stuff I work with in my shop.

    Click on his name, highlighted above to send him a PM.

    That said, I don't recommend buying a saw any longer than your shirt sleeve length.

    I find myself most often reaching for a lovely "smaller" saw made by our very own Ron Bontz.
    His saws are considerably more expensive, but (in my opinion) there are none made better, today.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom M King View Post
    Don't get talked into a less than aggressive geometry for a rip saw, or a hybrid toothed one.
    The great part about buying old saws is you can file them any way you want.

    Just my
    two cents.jpg
    Start simple with straight filing.

    After using the saw a bit you will know if it is too aggressive or not aggressive enough.

    Change the rake one way or the other or find a saw with more or less teeth per inch.

    Find your own sweet spot and happy sawing.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #12
    Mike and I are communicating. He has recommended a couple of saws that I am considering.

  13. #13
    Just wanted to give a status update on this thread. Mike Allen recommended 6 saws and I ended up ordering a 26 inch disston no. 16. I really like the carving on the handle. Its in great condition with just enough wear to suggest a history of being well cared for. The saw arrived today and I took it for a quick spin. It has an aggressive cut which is what I wanted. Relatively easy to start . Follows the line nicely.
    Mike was wonderful to deal with. Responsive to my emails. He did a terrific job refurbishing the saw. I especially appreciated that Mike included a card recording the saw's geometry. Count me a happy customer.

  14. #14
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    Good idea to buy a restored saw to start. There is a DVD by Ron Herman entitled Handsaws Tune-up, Setup & More that is a great resource for sizing, sharpening and tuning handsaws. Another option that no one mentioned is a bowsaw. WoodJoy tools makes excellent bowsaws at very reasonable prices, both in rip and XX. A Japanese Turbo blade in a WoodJoy bowsaw is easy to use and instead of having to sharpen the blade you can just replace it when the extra hard Japanese teeth finally wear out. Japanese blades are available in crosscut, rip and turning or jigging blades. One bowsaw with a few blades may handle the work of three or four handsaws which may be a bonus for a new user.

    Still I like my Disston 16 too. I agree with Steve too, no one makes a better handsaw than Ron Bontz, mine is a 20" Roubo that lives in my Stanley #150 miter box.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 10-28-2014 at 11:12 PM.

  15. #15
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    Hi Mike,

    Thanks for the update. I think you did great! Hope you enjoy and use your handsaws as much or more than use mine.
    After I wrote my post I thought more about it and then realized I probably use my 26" saws more than an other size because most of my crosscut saws are 26, and I do a lot more cross cutting than ripping.


    Stew
    Last edited by Stew Denton; 10-28-2014 at 11:40 PM.

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