[OP]
Member
Not looking for the merits of other tool steels, I am just looking for any opinions on the stated steels. I have the opportunity to purchase either a set of Buck Brothers Cast Steel socket chisels or a set of Lie Nielsen O1 chisels. Can anybody offer any insight?
Member
Cast steel just means plain carbon steel that started life being poured into an ingot. Then,the ingot was forged into a more usable shape. It might have been rolled into bars,etc.. It,being plain carbon steel,if of sufficient carbon content(there were several grades of cast steel),might take a sharper edge than 01. But,it will not hold it quite as long. 01 takes a plenty sharp enough edge,though. I've been using old Marples,made of 01,since the 1960's. I'd go for the 01. It has a few more additives than W1(plain carbon steel). It has more durability.
All depends upon how well the chisels were hardened and tempered,though. There is no way to guarantee the superiority of either metal. Hardening and proper tempering mean an awful lot.
Contributor
The cast steel chisels are likely to be fairly old, although that could mean early 1900's. If you like the idea of working with tools produced that long ago, I'd buy the cast steel ones. If that doesn't mean anything to you, go with the O1's. As George said, it's very hard to know which one would be superior without using them.
Lie Nielsen will stand behind their products, however, while I imagine the cast steel ones are "Caveat emptor".
Mike
Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.
Contributor
I agree with the above posts. I def would choose the 01 LN chisels. They have/had a very consistent hardening/tempering service for their 01 products. I don't believe they are offering 01 anymore as they have gone to A2 due to being set-up in house to harden/temper this steel, which is far more difficult to get right than 01. Maybe they still offer some 01 products if you ask but heard this is no longer an option, unfortunately.
Guest
It really makes no difference in the long term. The Buck Brothers chisels should be about 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost of the LNs if they're in good shape, and BB had a lot of different profiles.
I have had LN chisels (but not O1), and I have about a dozen and a half buck brothers chisels and gouges. the buck brothers chisels are a bit softer than the average chisel and very fine grained steel. If you tend to like to use stuff like modern waterstones and keep your chisels prickly sharp, if the LN's spec 60 or more, you'll probably prefer them.
If you sharpen freehand and use anything other than modern waterstones, you'll think the buck brothers chisels are marvels in that they sharpen super easy, but they seem to hold their edge well given how soft they feel on the stones.
Presume they are of a bevel edge type, and the other benefit of the old BB chisels is that their edges were nice and delicate.
Member
The LN 01 chisels are almost as well made as your handplanes.
I like the older cast steel formulations as I hone my chisels, plane irons and knives by hand.
The newer stuff is (in my novice opinion) superior in many aspects, including edge retention.
The downside is that the stuff takes longer to get back in shape again.
Member
I've not tried 01 but many of my hobby tools are cast and I like them.
Ward & Pane Cast Steel.jpg
Member
Old chisels usually need a lot of work. They are rarely very flat and pitting in the face are not good for the sharpness of the edge. That is something you have to think about. I like old tools, so I take the work. But not everyone likes that.
I'm sure the LN's are decent enough.
Contributor
I don't think I would trade my Buck Brothers chisels for a new set from any maker.
They may not be as good in the area of steel quality and such, but they are my go to chisels for many things.
My set is a put together set meaning the chisels were acquired one or two at a time.
If the dollar amount is the same, the LN set might be a better deal.
jtk
"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)
Member
I will warn you that even the good antique brands are liable to not be consistent in hardness. I have over a hundred Addis carving tools,which well have proven this to me. Some are so hard I have had to temper them to a higher temperature to be able to sharpen them and retain a good edge, Some are too soft.
In my many years as toolmaker and fix it up man,I have seen old chisels(real old) where the laminated steel came loose(was not welded OR hardened),and curled up just like a fish hook. I had no course but to grind away the unwelded portion,and harden and temper the rest Of the tool.
Quality control used to be entirely dependent upon how well the operator was feeling,or how drunk he was,I'm sure!! They had no hardness testing devices,nor chemical analysis of the steel. Chemical analysis was in its infancy when the Titanic was built in 1912(?). It had cheap steel on the hull that split wide open at icy temperatures. Possibly a good measure of criminality on the men who purchased the steel,too. So,that glorious ship was lost with so many lives. Bear this in mind when selecting antique tools. Lots of Butcher brand tools have passed through my hands,too. I used antiques for 16 years when in the musical instrument shop phase of my career. Left a lot of them there,unfortunately.
Guest
Most of the buck tools are pretty consistent if they have the "buck brothers" "Cast Steel" stamp on them. They are a little soft compared to some of the modern boutique brands, which may be offputting to some folks. My chisels are all pretty much identical, but the gouges feel like they might be a bit harder (incannel cranked neck gouges).
I can't make any claims about buck brothers chisels that don't have "cast steel" in the stamp on the chisel. I have a couple of those (they otherwise look similar in profile to older ones), but
Buck brothers and old butcher chisels have a very similar feeling - very fine grained "dry" feeling, very compliant on the stones and a click or two softer than something like a 61 or 62 hardness modern chisel.
George, I'm sure I have less experience on the older chisels, including the laminated ones, but the experience I have with them is similar to yours. I have some where the forge weld at the back of the lamination has broken due to abuse, and the chisel is slightly bent with the lamination starting to let go near that bend. And I have some others, especially larger chisels, that don't seem quite hard enough for dry wood. The cast steel labeled bucks are about as safe as 750 marked stanley chisels, though, which is pretty safe.
Member
Actually,some of those heavy framing chisels with laminated edges were probably made for cutting green wood in building a barn or structure. Never the less,some failed at that and required hardening.
Guest
I figured that (the softness would make them easier to keep them in spec on the worksite).
You just never know with the really old ones, though. I have a 1" framer that I bought for about $20. It's more of a thick firmer, small for a framer. I bought a japanese imai chisel for $110 to cut dais (a tataki, or thicker cross section chisel), and that old small framing chisel was as hard as the imai chisel or close, and actually stood up better in use (and since I could put it on the dry grinder) it was also much faster to sharpen - a japanese chisel that is failing a little bit is a pain if it has a thick cross section, because you have to sharpen that damage away by hand on a full bevel.
I'd suspect the turn of the century buck chisels were probably a mostly modern process proposition, though, and they had that down. They're all finished the same (and accurately), and were probably production consistency vs. blacksmith consistency.
Member
I have collected W. Butcher cast steel chisels and other Butcher tools for many years. I found them to be not only excellent tools, but it's kinda cool to be able to work well with the old stuff.
Might not be the newest alloy, but I sure do enjoy them.
Bill
On the other hand, I still have five fingers.
Member
Hi Caleb,
I have half a dozen old BB cast steel chisels and like them. But especially I like paying $10 or $15 and getting a quality tool. I haven't used the LNs so I can't compare.
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