Record #4 Smooth Plane - Refurbish or replace it?

[Joe Hollis]

Hello everyone-this is my first official post...

After spending a good hour trying to flatten the sole on a Record #4 plane, using 80 grit wet & dry sandpaper sheets on my small granite surface plate, I'm getting much closer to giving up and coughing up for a new LV or Lie-Nielsen replacement. Putting a machinist's straight edge across the sole on the diagonals, there's still a fair amount of light showing - I would estimate an .018"+ gap in the middle. I've already bought a replacement blade and cap iron from LV here in Vancouver ($72.00) with the intention of sprucing up this plane, but it appears that it may be more trouble than it's worth. I don't use the plane that much, but would likely do so if it worked better.

I know this isn't exactly a novel question on this forum, but given the mediocre overall quality of this Record plane, should I bother continuing to fix it, or stop now and get out the Visa card? At the current rate, I may end up spending half the cost of a new plane on W/D sandpaper.....

Thanks a lot for any advice,

Joe on the Left Coast

[Lee Schierer]

This would be a good question for the Neander forum, but I would continue unless you can recoup your $72 for the new parts. I have several old planes that I have tuned up and they are a joy to use. Unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket to by a new plane. I find that 220 grit removes metal faster than 80 grit when flattening soles. Another option would be to look for a similar plane at yard sales and flea markets.

[Moses Yoder]

If the area right in front of the mouth is flat and the heel is flat, you are good to go. I would sharpen the iron, install it, and see how the plane functions. Basically you want a straight edge to rest on the toe, right in front of the mouth, and the heel; if it bumps up in other areas of the sole the bumps need to be removed. Once the plane functions the way you want it too, no further flattening is needed. If you have the money and little time, buy the new plane that functions well out of the box and give up on learning how to tune a plane.

[David Weaver]

You don't want wet and dry (silicon carbide) paper to do the job you're doing. What you want is a flat surface and a psa stick down roll of 80 grit aluminum oxide paper. Something like Mirka gold on a roll. A 3 foot section would remove the trouble on your plane, and you'd have enough left on the roll to do 9 more like it.

For some reason, the cost of these rolls has gone up, they are now $21 a roll, but after flattening many planes on them, I'd say very well worth it. If you were local to me, I'd work the hollow out of that plane for you in about 15 minutes. I use a 42 inch run on a piece of glass shelving. It's shockingly fast, and the al-ox is the paper for the job - it does dull, but it doesn't break down nearly as fast (wet and dry fractures - it's harder, but more fragile). For coarse work, 80 grit is what I've found to be the best.

What we're doing with the paper is using it in a way it probably wasn't designed to be used - we're looking for it to do bulk work with high pressure at slow speed, something that doesn't happen much with the machines the rolls were designed to be used on.

[Tom M King]

I've never seen any plane with that much deviation. It must have been dropped, or run over. One poster on these forums machine grinds planes, but I'm not sure of the cost-probably less than the sandpaper it would take to flatten this one though.

[David Weaver]

The deviation sounds suspect to me, too. The total cost in PSA paper would probably be about $3, though....if one could stomach having 26 or 27 feet of mirka gold roll just sitting waiting for the next project after that. It could be stuck to a TS or Jointer, or a glass shelf from a glass shop (which would be about $20, but has a ton of uses once you have it).

[Frank Martin]

This is a function of how much more labor you want to invest in it. I am sure it can be done. I attempted in the past and failed. I am sure it was because I did not really know how what I was doing back then. I then sold all my vintage and some back then new Record planes and purchased LV BU planes. Yes, they do cost more, but for me they were (and still are) well worth the investment as I really prefer to use my limited time to do actual woodworking and I enjoy using well made tools.

[Fidel Fernandez]

I am in the same boat. I decided no more vintage tools. I have spent almost the same amount for 3 vintage planes No4, and shipment that I am close to the price of a new plane. I might get one combining all the parts, but it will never perform great.

One of the seller advertised the plane was flat. The sole was all twisted. It is beyond repair. He offered to take it back, but I have to pay the shipment.I will be close to the price of the plane just with the 2 shipments (original purchase and return it). I decided to keep it.

All the time that I have spent; plus the price, it is not worth it. Lie Nilsen or Lee Valley from now on.

I enjoy working on wood, not working on metal.
I really like the Stanley better for the weight, it is less metal to move. Too many problems with vintage planes, so I have to start lifting weight and get use of the new planes.

[ken hatch]

I am in the same boat. I decided no more vintage tools. I have spent almost the same amount for 3 vintage planes No4, and shipment that I am close to the price of a new plane. I might get one combining all the parts, but it will never perform great.

One of the seller advertised the plane was flat. The sole was all twisted. It is beyond repair. He offered to take it back, but I have to pay the shipment.I will be close to the price of the plane just with the 2 shipments (original purchase and return it). I decided to keep it.

All the time that I have spent; plus the price, it is not worth it. Lie Nilsen or Lee Valley from now on.

I enjoy working on wood, not working on metal.
I really like the Stanley better for the weight, it is less metal to move. Too many problems with vintage planes, so I have to start lifting weight and get use of the new planes.

I shouldn't laugh but.....preach it brother how true it is. I have a few old planes I've restored such as an almost complete set of type 9 Stanley's from the #3 to #8 and a bunch of duplicates up to type 13. To go with the old rust are Woodriver, LN, and Veritas planes from #3 to #8's many also duplicates that I use to work wood. Any time someone asks and sometimes when they don't ask I will try to guide folks to starting with a couple of Woodriver planes or if they can and want to spend a little more either LN or LV.

While there is nothing wrong with OEM iron in the old Stanleys if it has not been abused or is pitted, most planes I've gotten off eBay have needed the iron and chip breaker either replaced or require hours to have a working iron. By the time you replace the iron and chip breaker, pay for shipping, and deal with the eBay burn rate it is cheaper to buy a new Woodriver. With the Woodriver you have a plane that can be put to work with very little effort. Just check that a guerrilla didn't tighten the frog screws, get replacement posts if they were over tightened and hone the iron. That is about all that is needed to have a working plane.

While I enjoy hoarding and fixing rust, I enjoy working wood more and it is a quicker road to working wood to start with a new plane from a good maker.

ken

[steven c newman]

These three are Millers Falls #9s, about the same size as a Stanley #4. One was even "New in Box"
Millers Falls No. 9s.jpg
They all needed maybe a day to get back to like new. Soles were a bit worn. A ride for abit on the beltsander did the job of flattening the sole. Had all the parts onboard, clamped down, but the edge was retracted. Maybe 10 minutes of cruising along..

Area ahead of the mouth, and the heel are inline with each other. Two have a very slight hollow right behind the mouth opening. But the edges of the soles are inline with the main areas. Normally, it takes maybe a day to get a new-to-me plane refurbbished up. Irons usually need the most of the work, as they are worn badly. Some are shaped like a wave ( ~) or worse. I restore the edge to square across, with a flat area the first 1/16" . No real need to do the entire back. I then can mate the chipbreaker to the iron. I check the face of the frog with the iron, looking for "bumps" that would make the iron rock. I make sure the frog will seat solidly. And square to the mouth opening.

Other than a general cleaning to make it look pretty, most of the work would be done in less than one day.

[David Weaver]

You guys have to be pulling our legs a little bit about the number of planes that can't be recovered, and the time it takes for the irons. If you're going to do more than one or two planes, it pays to get a long run of al-ox paper, or a granite slab and some norton 3x 80 or 100 grit.

One of the important things to look for in ebay planes is a full iron and a cap iron that appears to be undamaged. After that, I haven't ever thrown a plane away except for one kk 4, and one very modern stanley plane (that nobody would buy looking for vintage planes on ebay).

The average cost of the 4s that I've bought in the last 8 years (including millers falls 9s) is probably between $25 and $30, and I've never bought any at a flea market or gotten up at the crack of dawn to get them.

There's nothing wrong with the new planes, and if someone wants to buy them, that's fine. There is a little learning curve in picking and restoring the old ones, but I find them a little nicer to use in bone stock form than new planes, partially because they're a little lighter, and partially because they're not perfectly flat, so you don't get the plane sucking to the wood like you might get if you're comparing a vintage jointer to something like a lie nielsen jointer.

[Jim Belair]

I've got a 70's era #4 that wasn't good for much so I ground a good radius on the blade and use it as a scrub. Not optimum length for that I suppose but it has served me fine. That would be an option if you decide to pull the plug and go for a new smoother.

[Jim Koepke]

Joe,

Welcome to the Creek. I suspect your location is north of the border since the Vancouver near me doesn't have a Lee Valley store. At least not that I know about.

If your abrasive sheet isn't well anchored it may be buckling under the plane and not doing any good. Using a marker across the bottom can help determine if this is happening.

If this were my plane I might get a bit creative and try to map out the spots that needed more metal removed and then hold the plane so only those spots were on the abrasive. This would require a lot of stop and go for checking every few strokes.

I have two planes with similar problems that are waiting for me to be a little less busy to correct their problems.

Good luck,

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

As with several others, I prefer to spend my time working wood, not metal. I want to make furniture, not tools. If you haven't used them you can return the cap iron and iron back to LV as you buy a new plane.

[Adam Cruea]

Honestly, I think I've only touched 2 or 3 of my 12 or so planes, and it wasn't anything major.

Checking the bottom with a straight-edge is a little nuts and anal retentive. Hone the blade, slap it in, and take some shavings. Does it work and do what you want it to do? Yes? Then good. You're done.

Not being snarky by any means, but some of the planes I've seen restored were restored to collector-esque proportions, not user-esque proportions. You don't have to re-Japan the thing, the sole doesn't need to be completely dead-nuts, and the frog doesn't have to be dead-nuts either. Bode-ing a plane just gets suckers to pay $400 for a $100 plane.

As long as there are no cracks in the sole and the thing isn't deformed, put the iron in it and try taking a shaving. You might be surprised.