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Thread: question about using gouges upside down to round over

  1. #1
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    question about using gouges upside down to round over

    I am primarily a hand tool furniture maker and have recently tried a little bit of carving to add some decorative elements - mostly shells.

    I am currently attempting a Chippendale lowboy in cherry that has some carved floral elements along the lower apron.

    Once I've incised the outline and lowered the background, I struggle with using a gouge upside down to round over the upper edges of curved elements. It seems like I can never get the handle low enough to avoid the edge "digging in" and causing chip out on these delicate edges. Is there a particular type of tool I should be using for this? Maybe some kind of "back bent gouge"?

    For the equivalent job in furniture scale work I would use a half round rasp, file or a scraper to get the symmetrical "Bead" shape I'm looking for. Given the delicate grain in the carving that I want to "round over", it seems like some kind of abrasive tool might offer some advantage's in reducing chip out vs. a cutting tool? Is there some kind of equivalent scraper or abrasive tool I should use for this job with smaller, carved, curved elements?

    I have a small riffler that is sort of a curved triangle on one end and a curved "paddle" on the other. It's hard for me to hold and doesn't work very well for me. I would think some kind of similar tool for smoothing the outter edge of curved elements where they meet the background would be very helpful- maybe a "diamond point" riffler? Any suggestions / recommendations are much appreciated!

    Thanks, Mike

  2. #2
    cutting tools generally only want to cut one way. there are a variety of tools that cut the way you want but a sharp straight edge will usually get you close. i prefer skews over chisels. while i have all sorts of abrasive tools i prefer self stick sand paper on an artists pallet knife. very flexible and you can use finer and finer grits as the job proceeds.

  3. #3
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    A back bent gouge would give a good, crisp surface, but odds are you would need several to handle a floral motif with differing radii, space limits, etc. If you really wanted only one tool for this, I'd use a double-beveled fishtail chisel (which allows tight curves, etc. like Randall's skew) or try a double-beveled straight chisel - if it has some flare to the blade, it helps do curved edges better. Both these and a straght skew will give you a "faceted" edge, not truly rounded over, but you can make the facets so numerous and fine that they are not very noticeable, or you can sand lightly afterwards to remove the arrises of the facets and get a rounded profile.

    Scrapers don't really work well if you have to go cross-grain; they can pull chunks and chips off fine details. I have used them very lighly to remove facets in rounded areas, but only as a last resort.

  4. #4
    In order to use a gouge effectively upside down, you need to sharpen with both an inside and outside bevel. Chris Pye ,as well as others, talks about tool modification in his book. By changing the bevel angle you can control where the handle is in relation the work surface. There was an article in Fine Woodworking not too long ago about tool modification also.

  5. #5
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    thanks. I really appreciate all the advice.

    Finally finished up today 1 carved piece on current project. Karl's tip about the double bevel, fishtail chisels seems like it would work for me. Don't know why I didn't think of this-same principle asblock plane for cabinet scale work. I would post some pics, but my work has no business being in the same place as the real talented stuff I see here.
    Cheers, Mike

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    Aw c'mon Mike - I'm sure they'll be great, go ahead and post pics; it's always good to see some carvings and learn from what tools and techniques people use. Besides, it's not like this forum is stuffed with posts...
    enjoy your carving
    Karl

  7. #7
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    Karl, since you're twisting my arm – and you have been so generous with your advice; here's some pictures of the bottom apron of a Chippendale lowboy I'm building, with my feeble carving attempts. There are other details in the Neanderthal forum where I'm posting pictures of the build process.


    DSC_0281.jpgDSC_0284.jpgDSC_0285.jpgDSC_0286.jpgDSC_0288.jpg





    The LOML gets design approval in my shop (chiefly why we been married for 30 years and I have a chance that this project might make it into the house when I'm finished). I had a question about the correct way to finish the background that adjoins the carved area. I don't think you can see it very well in the pictures below but I outline the relief area and then cleaned up the background with a #2 sweep gouge, which leaves the gouge marks on the background. The boss says I should sand these smooth, but I kinda like them.

    What do you guys recommend? Is there some kind of accepted standard, or is it more a matter of personal preference? It doesn't really matter to me, but I hate sanding!
    DSC_0276.jpgDSC_0278.jpg


    I very much appreciate the advice and expertise of everyone here.

    All the best, Mike

  8. #8
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    Hi Mike, thanks for sharing the pictures; it's looking great!

    On a lot of antique furniture I've examined that was carved from the solid, like yours is, there are often one or two slight gouge-marks visible near the carvings, plus the grounding usually has a very fine undulation to it, indicating that they did either sand it or scrape it. I have used scrapers for what you've got; I just don't like trying to get sandpaper into tiny corners while trying to avoid sanding the carving, etc. If you don't aready have a set, get a standard set of multi-shaped cabinet scrapers (standard LV/ Woodcraft, etc. product) - with these you should be able to reach in all the corners and small areas.

    I'd first use a very sharp no. 1 or 2 gouge to get the ground as flat as possible and remove any noticeable gouge-marks, then scraping firmly and ligthly (i.e. avoid chatter marks from the scraper) shave the surface until it is "visibly smooth". if you think of it, this surface will be vertical when done, so the undulations won't be that noticeable with the way light reflects; really smooth is more important on horizontal surfaces like table tops.

    let's see what any other carvers say

    Oh, by the way, I have a comment for photo DSC_0276 (the one with the exacto knife): I don't know if you're done with the carving or still can reduce the ground some more, but you should try not to leave your stop cuts (the leaf outline, etc.) showing. They make the surface decoration weaker and more prone to pop off, allow splinters to start on the face (at the cut), and generally don't look s nice as a smooth transition from the flat face to the edge of the carving. Plus, if you stain it, they will suck it up and make dark lines around your design. If you are done carving, then you can fill the cuts with sealer/pumice/wax/etc. in the finishing stage. If you are still shaping, try to shave the ground down to the bottom of the stop cuts to make them disappear. One thing I've done that works well is to use a 1/4 in or so v-tool (60 deg) with one blade laid up against the dege of the design and the other flat on the ground, then using angle and pressure changes, shave the edge and ground so they are smooth and there is a nice transition. Then if the resulting cut is deeper than the ground, use the flat gouge to shave down to it from the flat field very gradually and the depth difference won't be noticeable. This technique also avoids jamming the flat gouge into your carving, as the end of the gouge shave will be a bit away from the foot of the carving. probably not a classical technique, but it has worked well for me on a number of difficult relief carvings.

    thanks for sharing the pics, I'll try to do the same soon
    Karl

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