Satin waterlox vs. mechanical rub-out to satin sheen

[Steve Van Kirk]

Hi folks,

I'm in the final finishing stages of a reclaimed Douglas fir dining table project. I've applied several (wipe-on) coats of Waterlox original sealer & so far so good. As expected, though, the sheen is too glossy for my wife and I so the plan from the start was to apply a final coat or two of Waterlox satin over it.

After building up a couple samples, however, it seems the best way to get an even finish with the satin is by brushing it on relatively "wet" (without being runny, of course), and then leave it alone - don't go back to areas or overwork it - let it settle on its own (after a tip-off, that is).

The trouble is that it almost started to have a slight "coated-in-plastic" look. So my question is this: if I want that "in the wood" look to the finish - yet with a satin sheen - am I better off rubbing it out mechanically rather than coating in satin? (I was trying to avoid a mechanical rub-out because the wood has so many imperfections I think there would be lots of shiny spots where the sandpaper, steel wool, etc. wouldn't contact the finish during rubbing.)

Would love some advice. I'm no expert and I've only done a couple samples - and they're only about 4" x 4" so maybe when you do entire tabletop with Waterlox satin the look turns out great? People seem to use it and like the look, though the application seems to be hit or miss?

Or am I on a wild goose chase here: reclaimed wood, with satin finish durable enough for table top yet doesn't look "plastic-y"?

Thanks!

Steve

[Prashun Patel]

I'm no expert, but have been through your dilemma and experimented a lot. Here's my advice:

WAIT. The Waterlox OSF goes on garishly glossy, but settles down over a month. You may find - as I always do - that the OSF has the perfect sheen once cured. In fact, after use, any varnish gets rubbed out naturally, and the sheen settles down even further. So, I'd wait for a while and use the piece and then determine after a couple months whether you want to settle the sheen down further.

Also, know that an in-the-wood finish doesn't have a film; you basically wipe on coats of varnish and wipe it all off until the wood is sealed. It will be naturally satin. If you truly want in-the-wood, then the easiest way to do it (starting from raw wood) is to add a tad bit of boiled linseed oil to your wiping varnish. Wipe on, wipe off. The BLO increases the open time of the varnish so it doesn't become unworkably sticky and messy, which can happen if you try this with a pure wiping varnish.

[Jamie Buxton]

Rubbing out to change the sheen works only if you put enough finish on to fill the pores of the wood. If you don't do that, the steel wool changes the sheen of most of the finish, but can't touch the finish down in the pores, so you get a low-sheen finish punctuated with little shiny spots.

And if you put so much finish on the wood that you've filled the pores, the end result certainly doesn't look like natural wood any more. It looks like wood with a plastic layer on top.

[Steve Van Kirk]

Jamie: Yeah - I hear ya. I had this problem with a conga drum I refinished several months ago. I'd filled the pores but the brush strokes from the fast-dry poly gave the same problem - hence the reason I was leery of trying to rub out my dining table project. It was quite a "learning moment" for me. Granted I'm not using poly, but the same principle holds (rub-out doesn't hit low spots like pores, imperfections, etc.)

Prashun: Ah, yes - "wait". The hardest thing to do in today's society. Thanks for the advice. At this point I think that's what I'm going to do. I knew from the Waterlox literature the sheen would die down a bit as it cured, I just didn't know how much to expect.

And good point about the natural rub-out that occurs with use. I think I'll just finish it off with the Waterlox original and use it for a few months. The worst that can happen is I need to add some satin later. (Or sand & start from scratch with some BLO added and a wipe-off, in-the-wood approach).

Also thanks for the FYI about the "in the wood" look. I was kinda wondering if that was the case (i.e. building up a film - as would happen if following the mfg instructions - is in direct conflict with an in-the-wood look). But I'm a newbie, so there you go...

Anyways, thanks again, guys!

Steve

[Ron Kanter]

I just finished an exterior storm and screen door with Waterlox sealer and marine finish. I had a couple of questions along the way and called Waterlox customer service. They answered the phone immediately and took the time to answer my questions. On my last call, the tech guy wasn't in the office. When I asked when he would return, I was told that he would call me back later if I wanted to leave a phone number. Sure enough, two hours later he called. Use the phone number on the can. Great customer service and a tech guy who seems to know the product.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Steve -

> With the surface imperfections, I agree you are better off with final wipe-on coat of satin.
> I had always thought that the correct approach was to build the finish with gloss, then one last coat of satin. The wizards here have pretty much disabused me of that scheme - telling me there is no issue with "muddying" the finish by building with satin from Coat One. However, I still tend to do it that way - if I am using satin - simply because I don't use satin that much, so I have only a small qty of it.
> I prefer to rub-out from full gloss, when I can, because [a] I can choose my own final level of gloss, and [b] face it - it is cool to do.
> As a general rule, Prashun is correct. Walk away for a month or so. This is an imperative if you are going to rub-out - you need that long to get to a full cure.

SO - IMO - your "final" plan is a good one. One thin wipe-on coat of satin will do the trick. Just be sure to try it on a hidden place, to be sure you will get the finish you are looking for, because there is no going back the other way - unless you sand down all the way thru the satin to get to the gloss base.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've used waterlox on pretty much everything I've built and it does die down after a while. Not one piece is shiney.

[charlie spencer]

I have just applied Waterlox satin finish to a large walnut island top. As usual the product becomes sticky and is unforgiving to work with on this 50 square foot top. I covered the mess with Original sealer/finish and it worked like a charm, but the sheen is too much. I realize time will reduce the sheen, but is there a way to make satin as workable as the sealer/finish?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Adding finely ground silica (flatting agent) to a gloss finish is a shortcut to hours of hand rubbing with rottenstone and pumice to cut back the sheen.

The penalty is a somewhat artificial appearance.

[Thomas Canfield]

At a woodworker meting on finishes, the presenter said that he had got away from using any "satin" finishes ad going only with "gloss". His reasoning was that you can build up the needed thickness with gloss and then cut back gloss with steel wool or other and wax later, but you could never clear up the murky satin and get the clear depth gloss finish later.