Puzzling Tillotson Rip Saw

[William Huver]

Hello everyone, this is my first post. The enthusiasm for traditional tools and the willingness to pass along that knowledge is greatly appreciated, as I have picked up a lot of useful information here. I have searched the forum to learn more about a Tillotson rip saw I picked up at a yard sale. There is little to go on thus far, as I found only two (interesting) threads: one pertaining to a tenon saw, and the other to a 14" panel saw. I am hoping there is some additional information about Tillotson saws floating around out there.

The pictures can probably tell you almost everything about the saw, but here is the overview:

- 4 brass split nuts, one which is medallion sized and blank except for an L stamped into the center (upside down in picture)

- The handle appears to be English beech and lamb's tongue style, in very good shape considering the possible age of it.

- The saw plate is 28" long with rip teeth (about 4 tpi) and the toe end of the plate has a cracked spot. The shape of the nib seems odd to me.

- The etch area of the plate has "Tillotson" heavily stamped in an arch in block letters, with "Sheffield Cast Steel" lightly stamped in cursive letters below it. "Cast Steel" is a little bit of a guess, as only the first and last letters are noticeable. What are very hard to see are the lightly stamped cross-topped crowns located on either side of the Tillotson arch, about even with the crest of the arch. It is possible to see the crown on the right side in the picture, but you really have to look for it.

I would like to get an idea as to the date of manufacture for this saw, and learn what the crown stampings might indicate. Any additional information would be interesting and appreciated.

Thanks!

[Kees Heiden]

19th century.

It's very hard to date saws. Simon Barley does a brave attempt in his book British saws and sawmakers. According to that book, Tillotson existed until 1861, but on the same page are several Tillotson saws with a date c1870 and c1880. I guess it is later then 1830, because before that time most saws had the flat bottomed London pattern handle.

Allthough the brand doesn't exists anymore for a very long time, many of their saws are being found, also in the USA. At one point they had an office in New York.

(All this knowledge comes from Barleys book).

[Jim Matthews]

A Quibble, perhaps.

I see "Ray flecks" in the wooden handle.
I would guess that it's Oak, rather than Beech.

I have owned, and sold a few Tillotson saws.
They rust quickly, near the coast.

I'm guessing that the steel has a high carbon content,
and little in the way of the harder impurities that made
London Spring steel so prized.

While the selling point may have been to have large teeth
on a long saw, I find these prone to flex in heavy work.

Pretty, to be sure.

Tread lightly when you're using it, if that's your intent.

[Kees Heiden]

No, it's 99.9% sure beech. Oak was never used in English sawhandles. Beech has also very prominent rayflecks when exactly square cut.

[george wilson]

Beech also has those flecks if perfectly quartered. I am not a tool collector,but with the stamped crowns,I'd say that is a very early 19th. C. saw. 18th. C. saws have crowns stamped into the blade like that.

If Kees has a book about that maker,I'll have to defer to him(provided the book is accurate. He seems to have doubts.).

[greg Forster]

Also, some wooden planes have the crown stamped on them

[george wilson]

There is a VERY nice Tillotson rip saw on Ebay right now. It is in excellent condition. The closeups of the handle show the left over rasp marks that are characteristic of early saws. We left such rasp marks on the handles of our saws,because the unused examples we were issued to copy had those marks. Later on,when machines became more common,the handles were finished better. Oh,the lamb's tongue of the Ebay one is cracked,but everything else is in great shape. The name,and "cast steel" are clearly seen,and the crowns are there,though faint.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy William,

Welcome to the Creek.

Nice looking saw. I would be afraid to use it.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

If it were mine and I wanted to use it instead of making it a collector piece I would give strong consideration to removing 2' or so from the tip. I believe this could be done without removing the nib. A 26" saw is still a big saw, but removing the damaged end should stiffen and strengthen the saw a little as well as remove the largest problem. There are a number of people who restore saws that can do this if the end user is not comfortable doing it.

Like Jim says though, I think I would be afraid to use it.

[Kees Heiden]

I looked hard, but I can't see a crwon in these pictures. But crowns were part of the Tillotson mark and were used till the end of thei company. I read a bit more tin th ebook. The company was always named a cutler and knife maker, never as a saw making company in the tradeslists. They did buy a bunch of saws from Jonathan Beardshaw, who had quite a large saw manufacturing plant. And Beardshaw also had a crown in its mark, used at least until 1860.

I don't think the saw is really much older. The 18th century British handsaws had distintly different handles. The shape of this one is more typical from mid 19th century onwards.

But it does remain very difficult to date saws, because the same designs were used for decades, often way into the 20th century. And Sheffield was one big cluster of names and brands and everyone was buying from each other and selling stuff onwards under their own name. And each one of them had their own ideas about how the details of a saw should look like, often a result of the tooling they happened to have available.

[David Weaver]

On the sale of the saw george referenced the maker's saw making years are listed as (george is right, a very nice looking saw, ebay is probably the wrong place to sell it). It goes without saying, it's not a user saw (the one in this thread), and I'd hesitate to buy one even in the condition of the ebay saw because you never know what you're getting with the saws approaching 200 years old Saws 100-125 years old are more reliably hardened, and less likely to break teeth in my experience...anyway, the years:

1834-1856

[David Weaver]

oop....never mind. The saw george referenced has a broken handle. Ebay is the perfect place for it. I think a lot of the difference between the ebay saw and the saw in this thread is use and exposure, and not so much age.

I have had saws with beech handles that had flecking like that, too, as george and others have said, it was absolutely dead QS (I've had it in one or two moulding planes, too, as well as with cherry, it just shows up in a very narrow range of grain orientation with those two).

[William Huver]

Thank you so much for all the expert information! This is the oldest saw I have ever held in my hand. The history and dating is very intriguing to me.

I hadn't thought about using this saw, given its age, the split in the steel at the toe and the broken tooth. Perhaps there are some who are braver than me. The thought of putting it to wood scares me too! I plan to set it aside, and keep it waxed, especially now that I know it rusts easily. When I found this, I almost left it in the wooden crate it was thrown into in the shed where I found it. Not being a collector (well, not for show saws), I was looking for good user saws. On the way out, I ran into an upset woman who wanted to paint a landscape on it.

It's too bad that the saw plate isn't in better shape (it took me a while before I noticed the crowns), but it amazes me how straight it still is. I had never thought to look for tool marks. I found a Disston No. 7 (Med. 1860-65) with this saw that is pitted horribly, and yet still straight as can be, while many of the newer and better kept saws are kinked, bowed or otherwise out of shape.

I hadn't noticed before, but I see 2 Tillotson rip saws on eBay now. The one with the split hand hold seems closest to mine in that the stamp is "Tillotson" rather than "TTillotson" or "ThosTillotson". I'm not sure how that might affect anything. It also has better/clearer stamping than my example, apparently with 3, more visible, crowns. Thanks for pointing these other examples out, and for the additional manufacturing information.

[David Weaver]

What's funny is that it's almost certain that your saw is earlier than my earliest disston (I have a disston saw that has the very first medallion and the terrible shape plate on it appears to be a replacement, too). We think of a disston handle and medallion of that style as extremely old, but when we see english saws 150-175 years old, nobody says much!! (because they are plentiful)

In my opinion, the english styles had much better aesthetics than all but the oldest disstons, and disston soon departed and made handle types that were more easily done with machines, as did other manufacturers in the US, which culminated in some really weird looking handles (like the gigantic open handle on a disston 12 with machine done wheat, etc....not a fan of wheat on handles. It's needed to cover up a handle that struggles to look decent on its own).

[William Huver]

David, I hadn't really thought about it, but I completely agree with you, on all counts.

I don't have any Disstons as old as yours, but I had to go look at my Disston No. 12 (1917-1928), forgetting that it must be a replacement handle - apple, but wrong shape and no wheat; maybe from a No. 8. I'm rather glad for it, as the normal No. 12 handle is unsightly to my eye as well.

Either way, the Tillotson handle is not only more pleasing to the eye, with its subtle curves, it is far more comfortable (my hand is ~4" wide). The only thing I don't like is that the saw feels very toe heavy, making the handle feel like it's pulling on your wrist. Probably the worst handle in my small collection is the one on my Pennsylvania Saw (model A-1?, 26"). It's huge, awkward, and its blocky looks don't help it any either. It seems aesthetics (and ergonomics) certainly did not get better with time for the most part.