Truck costs are a much larger % of income..........

[Pat Barry]

I just bought a new F150 this week. My new one had a sticker of $27800, but I got a $3000 rebate because I was trading in a Ranger, so $24800.

I think congratulations on getting a very good price. Comparisons to the old days are only worth the hot air expended. Prices are to be compared with competitive models and from what I have seen in prices on new trucks you got a great deal.

[Andrew Joiner]

You can have relative prices of 1940s food if you're willing to buy organic!! My wife buys some things organic and it drives me up the wall. Milk for the kids is just under $8.

I was in the store looking for broccoli recently. The clerk said they were out of regular broccoli but they had organic. I told her I'll just get the organic and add the pesticides when I get home.

[Brian Elfert]

Your Levi's jeans is a perfect example of things going up. The levi's jeans my mother bought when I was a child lasted. They were heavier, thicker, well made. I would get a pair or two a year if I was lucky. We had a store called Maurice the pants man that would run specials at back to school. Now you go to sears, target, and buy a pair of levis? I can blow a pair out in a month. They may cost 19.99 or 29.99 but Im going to buy 4-6-10 pair a year. Either that or I am going to have 10 pair in my closet to "spread the wear". I NEVER remember a time having 10 pair of jeans in my closet as a kid. I will guarantee you right now that I have more than ten pair of target/sears jeans that are all in a state of falling apart. If I only had two pair Id be walking around in my BVD's which are also falling apart sooner than ever.

The price of cotton went through the roof a few years ago and manufacturers responded by making the fabric thinner instead of raising prices. The Kahki pants I wear to work don't last long at all before the crotch splits. I used to wear out the fabric around the edges before the pants fell apart. I just take the pants back to Kohl's and get another pair when they fail prematurely. I would prefer to pay a few dollars more in return for a product that lasts longer. I switched to pants that are one third more expensive and they still fail the exact same way.

[Ole Anderson]

If customers want inexpensive paint, then it sounds like you want to serve that market. I buy quality paint, my dad doesn't, and neither does FIL. both would rather put up 5 coats of behr to cover the same as two coats of sherwin williams.

I know this is off the OP's topic, sorry, but Behr is a very good paint, top rated by Consumers Union year after year at nearly half the cost of S-W and I hate to see it slammed as an aside. I just perfectly covered medium-dark blue mudroom walls with two coats of Behr Premium Plus in an off white. I wouldn't use anything else unless I need a self leveling cabinet paint. End rant.

[David Weaver]

I've had the opposite experience with behr. It covers in two coats if it's painted over a similar color, but if painted on a bare wall over primer, it looks a bit thin. It also has a bad habit of clinging to tape and tearing when tape is removed, something that sherwin williams paint does not do.

The criticism I saw of sherwin williams paint (other than the price if you don't get it on sale) is that it is so thick with solids that you can't work it after you apply it (which is fine with me).

I painted my new room, and put two coats on the inside of a primed door with sherwin williams, and bought behr for the outside of the door after letting them color match it at HD. I had to put 5 coats on. It was an exterior paint instead of interior, but I've used a lot of behr on the interior (bathroom, living room, bedrooms, etc) and in my opinion, it's just an inferior product all around when you're working with it and you want to do the job once and get it right.

My FIL likes to apply the behr, because he's used to it, despite the fact that it tears with the tape, so if he paints in our house (which he likes to do now that he's retired, who is going to argue with that?) that's what we buy for him to use. He likes to work the paint a lot after he applies it, and i don't. We put some patches of various colors on the wall, and it caused him fits because he had to go over the wall that had them about 4 times with behr paint. Actually, it would've caused me fits, but it didn't seem to bother him that much.

So, is it tolerable? I guess so, I tolerated it for years - it was the only thing I used because it was close by and I was trying to buy the cheapest decent paint I could find (I think the premium plus is probably the base that I used). Now that I've used sherwin williams primer and their good interior paints, I won't buy behr again, though. S-W is more expensive, but it's not that expensive if gotten as part of deals.

Strangely enough, when I was reading up about paints, i saw some accounts of contractors saying that some of their crews preferred valspar to S-W, so they separated the guys on each crew based on preference and bought S-W for one, and valspar for another, but I didn't see any pro painters mention behr, and after using S-W, I can see why. All of the little things about it are better.

As a nod to mark, I was always cheap on paint before my contractor gave me paint codes for S-W (to match what we wanted, and to match the windows that came with the room), but I followed the contractor's suggestion. I would've bought behr that time too, but my contractor said basically the same things I found out - they didn't like that behr failed to cover in two coats sometimes and it didn't dry as fast as S-W.

[Tom M King]

I know it's not the most financially advisable way to do it, but it's less painful to me in the long run to make one payment on a vehicle, and drive it until it drops, even though they are well taken care of.. Current truck bought new in 2001, it's a diesel dually, and still has lots of life in it. no payments for 13 years now.

I wouldn't even talk about working for 30 or 40 bucks an hour. With a reputation, people come looking for you. Want fast and cheap, don't waste my time.

[Mark Bolton]

I wouldn't even talk about working for 30 or 40 bucks an hour. With a reputation, people come looking for you. Want fast and cheap, don't waste my time.

I am in agreement. I think the 45/hour rate gets commonly tossed around because its a well know standard that that is basically the dead minimum you can stay in business at. On paper in a 50 week year (which would be very rare for someone self employed in the trade) that equates to 90k gross. Once you take out taxes, licensing, insurance, and so on, your sunk. I wouldnt say its impossible depending on the breadth of whatever work your doing but I dont think there would be much left over at the end of the year regardless.

[David Weaver]

You gotta be able to bill all of those hours in a 50 week year to get to 90k gross, too, which in reality means working extra hours during the day and some weekends.

If you have a spouse and kids, that puts a pinch on that. Better to have a working spouse with health insurance, that way you can write off the licensing and business insurance, and vehicle expenses but not get pummeled by health insurance costs.

[Mark Bolton]

I know this is off the OP's topic, sorry, but Behr is a very good paint, top rated by Consumers Union year after year at nearly half the cost of S-W and I hate to see it slammed as an aside. I just perfectly covered medium-dark blue mudroom walls with two coats of Behr Premium Plus in an off white. I wouldn't use anything else unless I need a self leveling cabinet paint. End rant.

Ole,
I can honeslty say I havent used Behr paint in perhaps 15 or so years since when HD first came on the scene. When I did use it back then it was like skim milk. Very thin, very cheap. That was what the homecenters were known for. I was against the home centers then and am against them now. The paint quality may well have come up since then but its still not a product I would support, or from a supplier I care to support. In all honesty I really dont even like SW myself. I have alway been a Benjamin Moore or Pratt Lambert guy (pratt is gone to sherwin now). Ben Moore was always the kind of paint where when you popped the lid there was almost a peak inside like a jar of mayonnaise. You might give it a stir and let go of your stick and it would stand there.

David hit the nail on the head in my opinion though, these type paints (and the new self priming scam paints too like Aura) dont like to be played with after they are on the wall. They require a deliberate and accurate application. Very systematic in my opinion. Thats generally not the way a homeowner paints because they dont paint every day. Pro's (at least the ones Ive been a round) move down a wall like a robot. The paint goes on dead even, clean, flat, no edge lines from the roller, at the recommended coverage, and they walk away. The wall is never to be touched again. I can only speculate that the home centers cater their paints to their target market and while many contractors use home center paint, when your painting every day, you can usually make just about anything work.

My gut feeling is that Behr was junk when they came on the scene and they have improved their offering which is understandable. But just like Walmart getting caught sewing made in the USA labels in their imported garments way back when, the average consumer just goes walking right back in. I dont. I try not to support these places that are ramming us into the ground for their own profit as much as I can. Its just my personal position and the Behr I used then is likely the way I will always view Behr.

[Mark Bolton]

You gotta be able to bill all of those hours in a 50 week year to get to 90k gross, too, which in reality means working extra hours during the day and some weekends.

If you have a spouse and kids, that puts a pinch on that. Better to have a working spouse with health insurance, that way you can write off the licensing and business insurance, and vehicle expenses but not get pummeled by health insurance costs.

You got that right. Hopefully your rate includes some office time (in which case your rate billed to the customer would be higher) but for sure, the office hours, hours at the mechanic getting your truck repaired, at the accountant, all of it, those are all billable hours.

[David Weaver]

Ole,
I can honeslty say I havent used Behr paint in perhaps 15 or so years since when HD first came on the scene. When I did use it back then it was like skim milk. Very thin, very cheap. That was what the homecenters were known for. I was against the home centers then and am against them now. The paint quality may well have come up since then but its still not a product I would support, or from a supplier I care to support. In all honesty I really dont even like SW myself. I have alway been a Benjamin Moore or Pratt Lambert guy (pratt is gone to sherwin now). Ben Moore was always the kind of paint where when you popped the lid there was almost a peak inside like a jar of mayonnaise. You might give it a stir and let go of your stick and it would stand there.

David hit the nail on the head in my opinion though, these type paints (and the new self priming scam paints too like Aura) dont like to be played with after they are on the wall. They require a deliberate and accurate application. Very systematic in my opinion. Thats generally not the way a homeowner paints because they dont paint every day. Pro's (at least the ones Ive been a round) move down a wall like a robot. The paint goes on dead even, clean, flat, no edge lines from the roller, at the recommended coverage, and they walk away. The wall is never to be touched again. I can only speculate that the home centers cater their paints to their target market and while many contractors use home center paint, when your painting every day, you can usually make just about anything work.

My gut feeling is that Behr was junk when they came on the scene and they have improved their offering which is understandable. But just like Walmart getting caught sewing made in the USA labels in their imported garments way back when, the average consumer just goes walking right back in. I dont. I try not to support these places that are ramming us into the ground for their own profit as much as I can. Its just my personal position and the Behr I used then is likely the way I will always view Behr.

The behr is still thin compared to something like pro classic from SW. I haven't used duration, which they were pushing, nor have I used the expensive primers that SW was pushing. They have a primer called pro block that they don't list or show in the front, and it's half the price of the designer primers they have. It dries in an hour and you can sand it - great stuff. The salesperson at SW gave me a dirty look when I asked for it and then brought it out.

Behr paint is still thin compared to the paints contractors like, but I'm sure the average person overworks their paint because they don't have faith that it will level on its own, or they want to go back a couple of minutes later "ooh...i see an area that needs to be fixed!!"

I remembered reviews of the pro classic paint when I got it where people said it was like painting with marshmallow fluff (it's not that bad), but did exactly like you said - apply it like a robot and let it go. A revelation for a diyer. It covered great out of a spray gun, too, for the door, and didn't take any damage when removing tape. I never could figure out how to not have behr not tear, and went to cutting it in painstakingly without tape at all trim before getting turned on to SW.

The only thing I don't like about SW is the price and the fact that they shove ultra expensive primers at you.

[Tom M King]

I am in agreement. I think the 45/hour rate gets commonly tossed around because its a well know standard that that is basically the dead minimum you can stay in business at. On paper in a 50 week year (which would be very rare for someone self employed in the trade) that equates to 90k gross. Once you take out taxes, licensing, insurance, and so on, your sunk. I wouldnt say its impossible depending on the breadth of whatever work your doing but I dont think there would be much left over at the end of the year regardless.

I wouldn't talk about 45 either. it was 50 some years ago. Get up to 65, and we'll talk. Even young guys around here with what tools they can get in pickup toolbox are getting 50. You have to pay all your SS in self-employment tax, your own health insurance. if you have to be dependent on a wife to work, and Hve benefits, go get a job as an employee somewhere. you are doing people a favor working for 40 or 45. If you are in business to do people favors, that's one thing. i'm not

[Ryan Mooney]

Heading vastly off topic Although I think its an interesting point of discussion in that it touches on the relative value of things. Some things have clearly gotten "better" (vehicles that run for 100k miles with minimal maintenance other than oil changes, and vehicle tire life are a couple that spring to mind - although one could certainly argue that we're paying for that capability) whereas other things seem to have maintained their relative cost but decreased in value over time (cloth/clothing in general seems to fall in this catagory a lot)

The price of cotton went through the roof a few years ago and manufacturers responded by making the fabric thinner instead of raising prices..

Quite some time before that (60's-70's) there was also a major devaluation of the absolute value of most cotton fabric when a lot of the processing went overseas and (more importantly) moved to high speed looms (even domestically before the great outsourcing).

The strength of a piece of cloth is primarily predicated on the strength of the thread used for the warp (the weft is - for reasons past my understanding - somewhat less important). The older cotton thread used on the warp was twisted quite tightly which made it very strong, it also made it more abrasive and required higher tension to maintain the cloth form. The higher speed looms would fail rather spectaularily when a piece of hard twisted warp broke and they were also wearing out much faster because of the abrasive nature of the thread. So softer twisted thread started being used because it was both cheaper to make, less hard on equipment, and was easier to work with but caused a corresponding decrease in the quality of the resulting product.

The end result was that jeans that used to take a year to break in were worn out in a couple of months of comparable use.

My (second hand[1]) understanding is that this has a lot bigger impact on the longevity of the cloth than the absolute thickness (that is you can have a light thin but strongly spun piece of cloth and a thick but still weak piece of cloth). The tighter thread does take more absolute fiber per yard as well though so I could see there being effects from that as well easily enough.

I wonder if they've moved to even softer spun warp on some of the newer cloth again.


[1] Source: loml is a spinner and weaver and occasionally goes off on the minutia of cloth and thread quality.

[Mark Bolton]

I wouldn't talk about 45 either. it was 50 some years ago. Get up to 65, and we'll talk. Even young guys around here with what tools they can get in pickup toolbox are getting 50. You have to pay all your SS in self-employment tax, your own health insurance. if you have to be dependent on a wife to work, and Hve benefits, go get a job as an employee somewhere. you are doing people a favor working for 40 or 45. If you are in business to do people favors, that's one thing. i'm not

Again, agreed.. Im right there with ya. That said, I have honestly never worked in an area where guys with tools in a pickup tool box were ever even remotely worth 50 and hour as a stand alone guy. Im talking just your average carpenter. So I guess I would either love to be in your area if the skill level is that high, or hate to be in your area for the pain it would cause my, and my customers, wallet.

A common rate around here for two men, and an equipped vehicle (van or truck) is 90 an hour. It often bills out at 800 a day. Thats from the time they get rolling in the morning til' the time they get back so it includes supply house/yard time and so on. Thats a rate the company would bill for those two guys. Its common to have commercial electricians and so on billing at 700-800 a day for a guy with a helper.

Now we both know, thats day work. When you fold it into a large job things are much different.

[Mark Bolton]

Heading vastly off topic Although I think its an interesting point of discussion in that it touches on the relative value of things. Some things have clearly gotten "better" (vehicles that run for 100k miles with minimal maintenance other than oil changes, and vehicle tire life

I have actually had this conversation with a few people and while its definitely clear that vehicle quality and longevity has increased I have often wondered if the real reason you are seeing such high mileages with less maintenance is merely a factor of people commuting much farther distances daily as well as road maintenance. Now Im not saying a 60's or 70's car would run forever on long commutes and the roads of today but I will bet they would have run many many times longer than they did.

When I was a kid, most everyone I knew had relatively short commutes. Just from memory 20 minutes or so may have been a long way for someone to go for work. Roads werent hat they are now, and so on. I know in my own life I live in a rural area. The types of roads you drive have everything to do with how much you have to work on your vehicle (dont get me started on HOW you drive ). Anyone knows if your running a lot of highway miles everything on your vehicle lasts longer. Tires, wheel bearings, ball joints, tie rod ends, the whole lot. Then, if you live in an area like me where you have a couple miles of gravel road, your U-joints go annually from the mud and dust, ball joints get pounded to smithereens in a year and a half, and so on. Windy back roads eat tires and bearings, and so on.

The longer highway commutes would seem to have a lot to do with reduced maintenance on a high mileage vehicle now.

The truck I mentioned earlier was driven like a fine custom automobile by my wife and I. We both were very "soft" drivers in the sense of hard accelerations, hard braking, and so on. It was a 5 speed manual so you can really take the beating off a vehicle (brakes and so on) with a stick. My mechanic use to tease me all the time that he couldnt figure out how we went so long without brakes. Clutch lasts 100k, and so on.