Is this a really dumb idea? Metalworking using a kitchen

[David Weaver]

Yeah, on the starrett, mcmaster is very variable. There are times when the starrett price is very similar to any other place, and there are times when mcmaster carr's steel price is like 25% higher than the going rate at the discount parts places.

They are not, however, so competitive on brass that I've ever seen.

I've only bought steel when I've needed it, so I'm not quite as much of a price shopper, but I haven't had any from anywhere that didn't produce a good result.

I read yesterday or the day before that lie nielsen is dumping O1 steel because they've had quality problems with it. I don't know how air hardening steel is done in production, maybe it's done very quickly and that's the difference. Just about any way that you control the temperature reasonably with O1 provides good results. The biggest shame is that their bench chisels in O1 would've been far more desirable than the same thing in A2, and I know derek has opined before that vintage chisels don't hold an edge very well and thus extrapolated that onto oil hardening and water hardening steels, but that is a matter of hardness and not a matter of the alloy (the vintage chisels are certainly less hard by a slight amount).

Edge for edge, the O1 steel is ideal for chisel type stuff and small blades in the shop - and compared at the same hardness and same angle is easily equal to any of the other common steels right now in chisels, but it grinds easier and is more convenient to sharpen on any stone than A2, short of diamonds - especially if you count time to remove nicks. It's certainly adequate for planing, too, if someone is not trying to win a contest of the most 1/2 thousandth thick shavings from a plane blade.

So, anyway, O1 - i've never had any trouble with any type, sometimes mcmaster has about the same price and sometimes they don't, but I like the starrett stuff despite not having any issues really with any of it - even completely unknown stuff that someone has sold in lots on ebay that just says "O1" on it in black marker (presume those are just sellers cutting short pieces off of long stock).

The cost does, though, get appreciable if you start building things like panel planes out of the steel, but that is one place where I will pay for the starrett, too, because I know the stock will be dead flat, which is a big deal to someone who builds metal planes without machine tools.

[george wilson]

I am certain that LN is stopping the use of 01 is due to warping issues. Making a plane iron without the bevel pre ground is not a problem. Insert it vertically into the quench,NOT flat or sideways. Cutting end in first,vertical.

But,when it comes to chisels with beveled edges on one side,the side with the bevels has more surface area than the flat(bottom) side. This WILL cause bad warping issues with W1(especially),or with 01. It is not a problem with A2,because it cools in still air at a very slow rate,yet hardens. I have used A2 for many years for the numerous punch and die sets I have made for my wife's jewelry business.It does not appreciably change dimension. The punches have to fit the dies perfectly. It is also much longer wearing than 01,since it has chrome in it. However,there is no free lunch,and the more highly alloyed a steel is,the less keen an edge it will attain. A2 will be fine for chisels,though,except for the most challenging situations,such as skiving the suede leather off of chrome tanned leather. I needed to do that with my LN block plane,and had to put the old W1 blade back into it to get that bit of extra keen ness necessary to accomplish that job.

As for the home shop,A2 is not what you want to buy unless you have the equipment needed to harden it. You need a pyrometer controlled electric(or other muffle furnace) to get the EXACT(within 25º) temperature needed. You need either an inert gas furnace,or wrap the A2 in a high temperature stainless steel foil wrap: It gets a thick,soft skin on it from decarbing if exposed to the air while hot. We were able to use it,but we had the equipment.

[David Weaver]

Do you have any clue how they harden it in production? (A2). Is it processed continuously by going through an oven and getting up to temperature and then just coming out of the oven and being exposed to the air?

I've hardened O1 with bevels already cut (just slightly shy of the edges) and it has been fine (no real warping issues), but I haven't tried water hardening steel in a similar configuration. That said, the O1 does move a little, and I always reflatten it some after it's been hardened. It's just a minute or two, though (I lap it to close to a polish before hardening it).

It's confusing to me because there's a multitude of other makers making oil hardened tools without issue (lee valley, ashley iles, clifton, etc).

[george wilson]

The simpler the steel,the more treacherous it is to warp or crack. W1 is the worst,01 is next. A2 is quite stable.

I don't know how LN might handle hardening A2. Most likely they have an inert gas oven to heat it in,and remove the chisels to cool in still air. They might be sending irons to a hardening service to be heat treated.

Yes,Stanley made,and makes their 750 beveled chisels out of simpler steel,and does it o.k.. I know that for hardening special,critical parts,like the large helical gear used in the differentials of rear wheel drive cars,they placed the gears in special jigs to hold them flat while quenching. Stanley may have done something like that.

I am not sure at all why LN would abandon 01. It could be they can't deal with the problems,they think A2 is better,or they just don't want to be bothered with dealing with 01.

All I can tell you is several years ago,when Ln was apparently still using W1 for their blades,I had noticed that one of my planes had an iron that was not up to the hardness they advertised. I checked it with my Versitron hardness tester just beyond the bevel of the plane. I called LN and got the foreman(guess that was his title). He wanted to know where I tested the hardness. It turned out they only hardened the first ONE INCH of their irons. Due to warping problems,I am sure. They indicated a high reject rate.

I told them their planes were very expensive,and they could go to A2 and though it cost more,they would have no reject problems,and could harden MUCH MORE of their irons' length,as would be proper for longer life for the irons.

The guy told me they had tried A2 and their customers could not tell the difference. Yet,a few months after I was told that,they started using A2 !! THAT really put me off,since I had bought 6 or 7 LN planes that had the old,1" hardened irons in them.

I managed to get LN to send me a FEW A2 irons,but to tell the truth,I thought the fellow I spoke to was not very friendly. And,I felt I had been lied to,because that decision to go to A2 had to have already been planned a long time before that. You just don't make a move like that suddenly,sorry.


So,what does this episode say to me? I think they do not have the expertise to handle 01 steel chisels.

They might not like to see me relating this story,but that is exactly what happened.

[David Weaver]

Everyone's process and such might just not fit, I guess (speaking of their - LN's - troubles with O1).

They have always been over the top helpful to me. I had one of their earlier A2 irons and thought it felt a bit soft on the stones. I don't know what the difference was, but I told them I thought the iron I had may have been a bit soft, but I didn't buy the plane directly from them. They took it back, tested it (it tested 61.5 - plenty hard enough) and called me and said "it's one of our earlier irons, it's in spec, but if you'd like we can send along a newer iron with it no-charge when we return it to you".

I declined that, the order of process literally would've been I guess wrong on an iron and send it to them, they prove that it's fine, and they send me a free one anyway. Too generous!

I don't know how hard they made their O1 chisels, but they can be made to the same spec as their A2 without problems, and would otherwise have the same edge retention in use. Blue II steel (which is considered a very tough chisel steel) and O1 are little different except for hardness and about 10% difference in carbon content, and blue II at 64 hardness is a very good chisel steel. I've seen some comments that LN's O1 chisels were not as hard as the A2, or implied that based on edge holding, and I think that was a bad move to not harden them to the same level.

That's the primary difference between the old chisels in oil or water hardening steel (which were designed to be easy to sharpen and specified to be used set up at angles, etc, for carpentry vs. fine woodworking) and new stuff made out of A2.

A2 does make a technically better plane iron, though, but the bits about it that are better are insignificant to an experienced user who is doing more than sharpening. Once someone planes with shaving thicknesses deep enough to do both fast and accurate work, clearance on plane irons is more important than absolute holding of initial keenness.

[Jim Koepke]

...

I told them their planes were very expensive,and they could go to A2 and though it cost more,they would have no reject problems,and could harden MUCH MORE of their irons' length,as would be proper for longer life for the irons.

The guy told me they had tried A2 and their customers could not tell the difference. Yet,a few months after I was told that,they started using A2 !! THAT really put me off,since I had bought 6 or 7 LN planes that had the old,1" hardened irons in them.

I managed to get LN to send me a FEW A2 irons,but to tell the truth,I thought the fellow I spoke to was not very friendly. And,I felt I had been lied to,because that decision to go to A2 had to have already been planned a long time before that. You just don't make a move like that suddenly,sorry.

It may have been that higher up the management chain was a decision to 'embargo' the information until the release date.

This is standard business practice whether we like it or not.

My recollection of the biggest disaster in this realm was when Adam Osborne mentioned his computer company would soon be coming out with an IBM compatible computer. Sales of the current line dried up, the cash flow stopped and some say telling the market early about a change caused the company to go under.

Yes, it also ticks me off when something new comes along within days of being assured by some sales person the item of my purchase is not going to be replaced soon.

jtk

[george wilson]

To be specifically told that A2 was NOT going to be considered was what I did not like. I did not like being sold a bunch of planes with 1" of hardened iron in them,either.

[Matt Lau]

Wow, I'm fascinated and intimated with the responses.
I'll be saving up for peanut oil and a MAPP torch in the future...but not soon.
Since I last posted, I have the opportunity to buy a dental practice in my hometown.

Because I won't have time to make blades, I bought some 7/8" white steel plane blades from Japan Woodworker.