I have a saw for a young girl (age 8)

[Andrew Pitonyak]

A few weeks back, I indicated that I wanted a saw for a young girl (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...r-a-young-girl).

I now have two saws that fit my daughter's hands. The first saw is a small panel saw that my daughter and I will rehab. I will provide a message when we get around to that project and give a more personal thank you to Jude Kenny who sent that saw.

Also, Ron Bontz saw my post, and responded in a totally unexpected way. Ron's message to me was essentially:

I have a saw I can't sell because it is not up to my standards (something about cosmetic flaws) and I have a small handle that should fit your daughter, you want me to put it together and send it to you?

That is an offer that is really hard to refuse. This is a picture after the saw had made some cuts. Probably the largest cosmetic flaw is the dirt under my daughter's thumb nail while she is touching this beautiful saw. I really like the handle!

20141018T181228_Saw_Pitonyak_Catherine.jpg 20141018T181056_Saw_Pitonyak_Catherine.jpg

Understand that my daughter has never used a saw before, and here are a few pictures of her using it.

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Obviously, I did not wait for her to gain competence, I wanted to get some information out there. The two lines on the right are the first two test cuts that I made. The rest were done by my daughter. For the "marked lines", I at least started the cut for her and then she finished it.

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and a few more cuts. The two right most saw cuts, she started herself with a line. You will notice the marks on the wood.

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Off hand, I figure not too bad for a first try.

Some more information, starting with hang angles on my next post.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Hang refers to the angle at which the handle is orientated to the blade.

Although I am not an expert in saws or hang angles, I know a little bit about math, physics, and stuff of that nature. So, feel free to correct me.

That said, for all of your math, physics, and modeling guys, I ignore many things and assume simple cases (like a spherical cow because it makes the math easier).

When you push on a saw, you apply force to the handle. The hang angle of the saw is the angle between the direction of the force applied to the handle and the cutting edge of the saw. I pulled this picture from Ron's web site, and then I drew a few lines on it and labeled the hang angle with an "x".

1. The red line shows the direction of the force applied to the handle / saw when you push on the handle.
2. The black line is perpendicular (90 degrees) to the red line (direction of force).
3. The green line runs along the teeth (cutting edge of the saw).
4. The x as shown is the hang angle of the saw.

back_saw_hang_angle_x.jpg

Now for a little bit of math:

If I assume that F is the force applied along the red line, some of the force pushes the saw down into the wood (F * sin(x)) and some of the force pushes the saw forward (F * cos(x)).

The saw that Ron sent has a 45 degree hang angle. At 45 degrees, the same amount of force is applied both horizontally and vertically.

For smaller angles, less force is applied down into the wood and more force is applied forward across the wood. So, a smaller angle makes it easier to start the saw, easier to use the saw, but the saw cuts slower.

I measure a Lie Nielsen Dove Tail saw and a Sheffield crosscut saw, and they both have a hang angle of 40 degrees. I also measured a large Bad Axe dovetail saw, and it measured about 36 degrees. I hear rumors that the Bad Axe dovetail saw has a 32 degree hang angle, but I was only able to measure the large dovetail saw today, but I should be able to measure a standard size dovetail saw from Bad Axe in the not too distant future.

So, why does it matter? I am usually using this type of saw to cut dovetails. I start the cut by placing the saw flat on the wood (rather than on an angle) and I simply start cutting. I practiced this for a long time.

1. I used a Bad Axe dovetail saw with a smaller hang angle for a few months and was starting cuts easily.
2. I moved to a Lie Nielsen dovetail saw and I had to recalibrate my brain for a few cuts before I was starting cuts easily.
3. Well, this is the first saw that I have tried with such an aggressive hang angle and it was initially very difficult for me to start the cut. After four or five cuts, it was no longer a problem.

My point in all of this is that this will be a bit tougher to learn on, and, if you ever jump to a different saw, be aware of the hang angle so you don't just immediately assume things about the saw based on how it initially feels, starts, etc.

For perspective, assuming that you apply 10 lbs of force, you have the following numbers:

Angle	Vertical (Down)	Horizontal
32	5.3 lbs	8.5 lbs
36	5.9 lbs	8.1 lbs
40	6.4 lbs	7.7 lbs
45	7.1 lbs	7.1 lbs

So, about the saw. It took a few cuts to figure out how to start the saw with the aggressive hang angle. Of course, I then had to train my self as to how fast the saw would cut because it sure cuts fast, and it cuts straight.

Ron offers saws with different hang angles, and I had never given this a second thought until that saw showed up and I gave it a try myself.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Finally, a bit more on how the girls is doing cutting wood. Catherine requires more practice, but, I am pretty sure that with practice, she will be able to use this saw just fine for cutting things such as dovetails. Even after such a short practice session, she is able to handle the saw and perform reasonable cuts for a first timer. I am torn as to weather or not I should mark the lines since she has trouble starting the cut and it seems to add to her stress when she tries to start the cut and it is not exactly on the line. I figure that starting and cutting straight are probably two distinct skills (apart from the fact that you need to start on that line).

[Alan Schwabacher]

That's pretty cool. Having a saw like that should provide lots of incentive for practice, and it's already showing. It's an awfully nice gesture from Ron Bontz.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

That's pretty cool. Having a saw like that should provide lots of incentive for practice, and it's already showing. It's an awfully nice gesture from Ron Bontz.

Yeah, I was pretty much floored...

[Mike Heaney]

First off- excellent all around, so congratulations to you, your daughter and to Ron.
i would like to offer a couple of ideas to ease the learning curve.
I would like to suggest a quick project to make a box for standing on while standing at the bench- this should allow a more comfortable sawing angle and a better chance at guiding the saw for perpendicular cuts. Obviously, she could saw the legs of the bench to make it more comfortable, but the previous user of the bench may complain- and the last time I tried a trick like that I ended up with an eighteen inch high table- fine if you are a fan of Japanese dining, less so for a workbench! Maybe project 2 can be a dedicated Catherine height appropriate workbench!
keep up the good work!

best wishes

mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

A box is a good suggestion. I was certainly thinking that things are just too tall for her. Also, if she made my bench shorter, that just might be a problem for me :-)

[Jim Becker]

This is really wonderful to read! I'm glad your daughter is enjoying working with wood and also that she's able to do so with a beautiful tool that's well fitted to her hand. She's doing great on those cuts!

Lot's of good projects come to mind...boxes, bird houses, cutting boards or other kitchen/dining things, doll furniture, games, etc.