Dining table design

[Dave Novak]

Hello all, this is the same project I requested dimension/size advice for in a previous thread. Even with all that good advice the dining table top will be roughly 96" x 60", for a variety of mostly good reasons, not the least of which is that it's what SHMBO wants. She also wants it to match two other pieces I built a long time ago that are a combo of zebra and wenge.

Zebra and wenge, as you know are stupid expensive and crazy heavy. Add the fact that my supplier had no suitable 6/4 stock, and I came home with 8/4 stock and the idea that I'd resaw the zebra praying to get two 3/4" slices from each board. My plan, at least at this point, is to glue up 3/4" zebra 8" shorter and narrower than the final top dimension, then attach 4" wide 1 1/2" thick wenge around all 4 sides giving the look of a thick table top. Running length-wise down each side and the center of the zebra I'll add a 4" wide 3/4" thick filler to the bottom that will rest on the skirt and a stretcher down the middle. I'm guessing this will not affect seasonal wood movement. The wenge on each end will have to be attached similar to a breadboard to allow for seasonal movement. I attached a couple bad drawings that might help you envision this plan.

I'll be the first to tell you I don't have a ton of confidence in this plan. I suspect it would make more sense to use my wenge for the legs and skirt and make the top zebra only, but my wife really likes the look previously described, but she could be talked out of it. Any better ideas regarding construction/design? Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Jamie Buxton]

You can resaw the zebra? That's good. It gives you two possible very viable approaches:

a) Resaw the zebra into slices thin enough to use as veneer on a plywood substrate. The usual rule of thumb is that the veneer should be 3/32 or so. In this situation, I'd veneer the core top and bottom to get a balanced panel. There's several good things about this approach. First, the panel does not change in width over time, so you don't have to do a breadboard end with a slip joint. Second, with a non-moving panel, it is straightforward to anchor the legs to the top.

or

b) If you're really allergic to plywood, you can resaw the zebra into something thinner than the 3/4" you're praying for. Laminate the zebra to some less expensive wood -- say poplar -- to get whatever thickness you want. The substrate grain direction runs the same direction as the zebra. The laminated pieces of lumber are still lumber, and do grow and shrink across the grain, so you have to respect that. But you at least get out of sweating bullets to get two 3/4"-thick planks from your 8/4 stock.

[Dave Novak]

Well, the resawing ability is kind of a stretch, every project stretches me. I've had great success resawing for small projects like the two I attached pic of, but managing a 60+ pound 8' board will require that I build and level some indeed/out feed support. I only bought 5 boards and a gallon of tightbond and spent $1,289.00. I'll be sweating bullets.

thanks for your thoughts. Do I need to consider the different rates of movement between the zebra and the poplar substrate?

[Jamie Buxton]

.. Do I need to consider the different rates of movement between the zebra and the poplar substrate?..

I haven't ever worried about it, and haven't been bit yet. But if you want to be really careful, you could. I'm guessing your zebra is mostly quartersawn; that's how zebra is most striking. The radial expansion rate is 7.8%. That's higher than the radial rate of most other species. However, it is quite close to the tangential expansion rate of ash, poplar, and doug fir. So you could laminate the quartersawn zebra to flatsawn lumber of any of those species. Of course, it'd be real nice if all the lumber is at the same EMC when you laminate them. If all the planks have been standing in the same dealer's warehouse for a while, they're likely the same EMC.

[Jamie Buxton]

The sideboard in the photos doesn't look like zebra. The color is more reddish than the zebra I've seen, and the striping doesn't look like zebra either. The wood looks much more like rift African mahogany, or rift sapele. Are you sure you have zebra?

[Gene Davis]

A 5-foot-across table is not a dining table. It is a conference table, the kind that are in law offices and district attorney meeting rooms where adversaries sit across from each other and argue points. The distance is useful in this situation.

If you entertain people you don't like, maybe you want them that far away. Whether friends or foes, however, you will need standing servants to pass the butter.

For what you are putting into this, I strongly suggest you build a mock-up from plywood and sawhorses first to see how the size works for you.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I might not understand the joinery details, but.......

How do you intend to attach the 4" wenge to the ends? That 60" expanse of a table top is going to move, and those end-caps [or whatever you call them] ain't moving.

Now, if you made thin veneer and used a ply substrate, that is a different story altogether. But from solid wood......

[Kent A Bathurst]

............ not the least of which is that it's what SHMBO wants.

...... adversaries sit across from each other and argue points............

.................a mock-up from plywood and sawhorses first to see how the size works for you.

Gene - by any chance are you single?

The way I read it, any arguments would be across a table any narrower than 60", rehashing how the table was supposed to be built.

[Larry Browning]

A 5-foot-across table is not a dining table. It is a conference table, the kind that are in law offices and district attorney meeting rooms where adversaries sit across from each other and argue points. The distance is useful in this situation.

If you entertain people you don't like, maybe you want them that far away. Whether friends or foes, however, you will need standing servants to pass the butter.

For what you are putting into this, I strongly suggest you build a mock-up from plywood and sawhorses first to see how the size works for you.

I have to agree with Gene. That is absolutely huge for a dining table. That is the same length as a sheet of plywood and a foot wider. I cannot imagine a single dining table being that large. If the bread bowl gets close to the middle of the table, no one will be able to reach it without standing up, and even with standing up one would need to reach way across to get it. A child could never reach it. What size is the room it will be going in? It had better be pretty big!
I made a 70" round dining table once that is absolutely massive. It sits in a 16 X 18 dining room and completely dominates the room. This one will be quite a bit bigger than that.

BTW, I also vote for veneer. It's about the only way you will be able to deal with the wood movement.

[Gene Davis]

I should have said that five feet across is the size of the meeting-room table in a divorce attorney's office.

No, I'm not single.

Currently building a dining table, rectangular, 44 x 78, with two 18-inch leaves.

[Dave Novak]

With respect to the size, I agree. I built a mock-up to prove my point, and that's when it was only 54" across. My mom, two sisters, and daughter happened to be visiting (for dinner) and not only agreed with my wife, but suggested that I might as well go to 60" as that's as close as you can push the chairs together when no one's sitting at it. Everyone's excited about getting 10 people around it when we have to. We're squeezing that many around a much smaller table now, but uncomfortably.

I'm guessing my options are veneer, which I've never done, or omitting the wenge border and instead using that wood for the skirt/legs. I'll need to start doing some reading on veneering. As much as I enjoy using expensive wood, it's something I'd be well served to learn.IMG_4041.jpg

[Kent A Bathurst]

I should have said that five feet across is the size of the meeting-room table in a divorce attorney's office.

OK - that's clever.

[Kent A Bathurst]

My mom, two sisters, and daughter happened to be visiting (for dinner) and not only agreed with my wife, but suggested that I might as well go to 60"

Five on one. You are outgunned, Dave.

I'm guessing my options are veneer, which I've never done, or omitting the wenge border and instead using that wood for the skirt/legs. I'll need to start doing some reading on veneering.

Whooa, buddy. Veneer is not your only option. What you have with the end pieces is nothing more than traditional breadboard ends. There is joinery that goes along with this that accomodates the movement. I did breadboard ends on my ~ 46" x 86" QSWO dining table.

That's precisely why I asked about your joinery details - to see if you were planning on this type of joinery.

It really is not that hard to do. But, on a table the width of mine, or yours, it just takes a bit of time to get the tenons [spanning ~54" of you 60"] sized, leveled, and fit to the mortises.

Top photo shows the tenons cut - the 2 center ones will later have a standard hole for drawpin through-pegs and the outer tenons elongated holes, to allow for the expansion of the table v. the breadboard.

Btm photo shows prepping to layout mortises in the breadboard. Notice there is a ~1/2" "tenon" running the length of the top, and then the actual tenons project from there. Corresponding slot in the breadboard, and I need to put the mortises in place to receive the tenons.

Apologies for the "tool show" - my Dad was curious as to how the heck I did some of this stuff - so I have a looooong photo history of a few items I made.


Dec 1 032.jpg

Dec 4 002.jpg

[Dave Novak]

Thanks Kent. How thick is the table top in the photos? My plan was to use dominos to join it all together. On the breadboard ends I was thinking I'd use small, tight fit mortises into the breadboard, and elongated mortises unglued on the table, except for the very center which would also be glued and tight-fit. Make sense? How thick is the top in your photos?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Started with rough 5/4. Kept it as thick as the tree would allow after eliminating twist, etc. - the top is sequential pieces out of a flitch - 6 boards, so 3 book-matched sets. The place I got the stuff is very good at handling the sticks, with very little twist,etc. as you should expect from a top-quality mill.

I will guess it ended up over 15/16", pushing close to a full 1".

Yeah - your plan is exactly what I did, except I pinned the board to the mortises. Straight holes in the center tenons, and elongated holes int he outer tenons. The tenons were "sloppy" in the mortises for exactly the same reason.

Just noticed your town. I spent the better part of 18 months there on business assignment some years back. What's the name of the Irish Pub in the SW section of town - in a shopping center, on a main road that makes a 90* turn? I shudder to think how many Shoes I had there - not one single healthy thing in that meal. Man - are they good or what?