Finally giving up on my Veritas mkIi power sharpener.

[paul cottingham]

I have finally had enough of fighting with my MKII power sharpener, and am moving on. One of the only veritas tools I own that I am truly disappointed in. So...I need a replacement power sharpening system, and am trying one of the Viel grinders. I have a motor, its rigged so the belt grinds down (direction) and have figured out a simple way to set bevels. I have a couple quick questions for anyone.

What grits of belt would you use? I have a trizac belt I really like, so I would likely stay with thos ones. They come in 240x, 400x, 800x, 1400x, and 2000x (nominally.)
Would you bother with a micro bevel? It would be simpler to set the rest to 25 degrees and carry on. Micro bevels would be simple, I would just prop the blade up a little with a shim like a popsicle stick. But still, are they really necessary if I'm not worried about the time savings they offer? I am thinking they aren't.
Would there be any benefit to a strop? I have the stropping belt for knives, would there be anything to be gained on edge tools?
Is there a simple way to reverse an AC motor? Would make stropping with the tool rest much easier.

I am committed to power sharpening. My hands are too screwed to hand sharpen (even though I get a real sense of joy from hand sharpening, and am reasonably good at it) and then do any woodworking on the same day. Sucks, but there it is. I can do quick touch ups on a strop or my 8000 gold stone, but that's about it. Oh, and I don't trust my hands enough any more to use a grinder.

Any suggestions are deeply appreciated!

[bridger berdel]

I have an old bench grinder that I fabbed up one side of as a belt grinder to use 1" x 30" belts. it's a bit of a kludge, but it works fine. I think if I were in your shoes I'd set up a bench grinder with 2 belts, one pretty coarse for the primary bevel, one quite fine for a microbevel, with rests to match.

[David Weaver]

I have finally had enough of fighting with my MKII power sharpener, and am moving on. One of the only veritas tools I own that I am truly disappointed in. So...I need a replacement power sharpening system, and am trying one of the Viel grinders. I have a motor, its rigged so the belt grinds down (direction) and have figured out a simple way to set bevels. I have a couple quick questions for anyone.

What grits of belt would you use? I have a trizac belt I really like, so I would likely stay with thos ones. They come in 240x, 400x, 800x, 1400x, and 2000x (nominally.)
Would you bother with a micro bevel? It would be simpler to set the rest to 25 degrees and carry on. Micro bevels would be simple, I would just prop the blade up a little with a shim like a popsicle stick. But still, are they really necessary if I'm not worried about the time savings they offer? I am thinking they aren't.
Would there be any benefit to a strop? I have the stropping belt for knives, would there be anything to be gained on edge tools?
Is there a simple way to reverse an AC motor? Would make stropping with the tool rest much easier.

I am committed to power sharpening. My hands are too screwed to hand sharpen (even though I get a real sense of joy from hand sharpening, and am reasonably good at it) and then do any woodworking on the same day. Sucks, but there it is. I can do quick touch ups on a strop or my 8000 gold stone, but that's about it. Oh, and I don't trust my hands enough any more to use a grinder.

Any suggestions are deeply appreciated!

If I were in your situation, I would do a 23 degree or 25 degree primary bevel and then use the 2000x trizact afterward with a microbevel a couple of degrees higher. Any more work than that won't get your a sharper or stronger edge, and will be inviting heat problems - especially with a trizact belt against a platen. You'll quickly find out just how much heat they can make quickly - in a second if you pause, you'll see the edge turn orange if you have a fine belt and any pressure against the platen.

It's my opinion that you want the edge feeding into the tool, and you can finish and hold the tool edge down then to strop. I have a viel grinder that was made by some carving outfit (or put together by one) and I attempted to switch the wiring so that I could get the belt to go the other way, and I toasted the motor and eventually just got a kalamazoo grinder (which has a much better belt speed and miles better motor, but the rest is not made for sharpening woodworking tools.

For grinding, you'd be fine with the cheapest aluminum oxide belts you could find. You could do a lot of in between touchups with a 2000 grit trizact belt before you had to grind again.

I personally think switching the belts on the grinders is a pain, and would rather have one doing the grinding and something else doing the honing part just to avoid switching the belts.

[Tony Shea]

Given your issue with using your hands to sharpen I really am not sure about power sharpening to achieve a suitable edge for woodworking. My only recommendation would be to go with a Tormek but the system you have now may be workable, I just haven't got the experience to tell you otherwise.

But as far as your motor goes, it depends on what type it is. Single phase AC motors can sometimes be tricky to reverse but should be doable. You will need to open up the end of the motor and find your coils. There should be a starting coil on your motor and these are the two leads you will need to swap in order to reverse it. Some pictures would be really helpful for me to explain better. Maybe if you google how someone may have a tutorial on the process.

[paul cottingham]

Given your issue with using your hands to sharpen I really am not sure about power sharpening to achieve a suitable edge for woodworking. My only recommendation would be to go with a Tormek but the system you have now may be workable, I just haven't got the experience to tell you otherwise.

But as far as your motor goes, it depends on what type it is. Single phase AC motors can sometimes be tricky to reverse but should be doable. You will need to open up the end of the motor and find your coils. There should be a starting coil on your motor and these are the two leads you will need to swap in order to reverse it. Some pictures would be really helpful for me to explain better. Maybe if you google how someone may have a tutorial on the process.

Tony, I can do fine work with my hands, its just the act of scrubbing on a stone hurts them terribly. So accuracy on an edge is ok. In fact, I just did an experiment where I ground a paring chisel (already reasonably sharp) on the viel, and got a very serviceable edge in quick order. The motor runs fine, and I think I'll leave it be. I can strop by hand, if need be (rather not!) or maybe pinch the blade against the belt right at the platen.

David, I agree with you about switching the belts, but I don't mind just doing it once per sharpening cycle. Do you think I could get away with a "grinding" grit, say, 400 or so, and a honing/polishing grit, and call it a day? The polishing grit would remain on almost all the time I would think. Do you think I need to strop?

[Steve Friedman]

Paul, I'm not thrilled with the Veritas Mk II power sharpener either for a variety of picky reasons, but I can make it work. Just wondering what the problem is? Getting the PSA adhesive off the aluminum platter without ruining them? The support bar isn't level? More steel removed along the outside out the platter than the inside? At least those are some of my gripes.

That said, I have never blued an edge on the Mk II. Can't say the same for the Viel 1 x 42. I agree with David about the Trizact belts. Prefer the others. I know lots of people get great results with that grinder, but I don't. I do think it is the best thing I have ever used for knives and axe heads because you're using it above the platen. But I have heat problems using it with the metal platen.

I don't have a Tormek, but based on the grinding thread, I am about to follow Derek's lead and get a CBN wheel for my slow speed grinder. I am debating between the Tormek Grinder attachment with the Tormek Jigs (around $300) and the Robo Rest from Reed Gray (Robo Hippy). Just found out about Reed's jig today and it looks promising. I have the Lee Valley grinding stand, but would prefer something where it's a little easier to get repeatable angles. I'll finish on stones, but it doesn't seem like that should be a lot of work with a hollow grind.

Just some thoughts.

Steve

[Jim Koepke]

Paul,

I am also curious as to the problems you are having with the MK II.

My problem at first was avoiding unwanted secondary bevels. I used the discarded backings to adjust the platen height to take care of that.

Out of square edges were easy to eliminate by using both sides of the disk surface. In other words sometimes they disk would be pushing grit into the edge and sometimes the grit would be pulling from the edge.

I sometimes freehand my lathe tools on the MK II.

I am convinced there isn't a perfect system for everyone. For my purposes the MK II covers a lot of my needs. Mine gets used to sharpen axes, shovels and even the points on an awl besides the chisel and plane blade work it gets.

jtk

[Christian Castillo]

I use the Viel with a 40 grit belt for coarse removal, I was able to remove 3/16" off a plane blade and change the bevel angle with that combination and the blade only got warm. I've tried to use the the Viel on a lark to see if It could handle an entire sharpening job. It works great for cambered plane blades/knives/axes. I go from 400, to 1k Trizact, to a leather belt with CrOx ( I wired my sander with a reverse for strop duty). My edge could pop hair so easily. I just don't feel the narrow platen and belts can maintain the geometric accuracy for straight edged tools like chisels, so I use my viel and the coarsest belt I can find for reshaping duties, then I go to a bench grinder for a hollow grind and follow up with stones. For tools with camber or curvature though, it is definitely nice.

[paul cottingham]

Paul,

I am also curious as to the problems you are having with the MK II.

My problem at first was avoiding unwanted secondary bevels. I used the discarded backings to adjust the platen height to take care of that.

Out of square edges were easy to eliminate by using both sides of the disk surface. In other words sometimes they disk would be pushing grit into the edge and sometimes the grit would be pulling from the edge.

I sometimes freehand my lathe tools on the MK II.

I am convinced there isn't a perfect system for everyone. For my purposes the MK II covers a lot of my needs. Mine gets used to sharpen axes, shovels and even the points on an awl besides the chisel and plane blade work it gets.

jtk

Yeah, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I can't get a repeatable edge without huge amounts of grief. My first bevel setter was strangely bent, so it wouldn't give anywhere near consistent results. Of course, Lee Valley replaced it happily. A little better, but it is still impossibly finicky for me. I even have trouble getting the damn thing tight enough that it won't wander around on the platter, which screws up my bevels. Having to run out all the way, leaving some of the tool hanging off makes it easier to burn the tools.
I have fought with it for 2.5 years, and kinda had enough. I really, really, really want to like it. But I just can't.

[paul cottingham]

I use the Viel with a 40 grit belt for coarse removal, I was able to remove 3/16" off a plane blade and change the bevel angle with that combination and the blade only got warm. I've tried to use the the Viel on a lark to see if It could handle an entire sharpening job. It works great for cambered plane blades/knives/axes. I go from 400, to 1k Trizact, to a leather belt with CrOx ( I wired my sander with a reverse for strop duty). My edge could pop hair so easily. I just don't feel the narrow platen and belts can maintain the geometric accuracy for straight edged tools like chisels, so I use my viel and the coarsest belt I can find for reshaping duties, then I go to a bench grinder for a hollow grind and follow up with stones. For tools with camber or curvature though, it is definitely nice.

Christian, I have the Veritas grinding jig, and the holder does fit the slot on the viel. So keeping edges straight is pretty straightforward. I'm also not as anal about that as I up suspect I should be, so freehand works fine as well.

Im curious, did you rewire a whole sander for stropping, or put a switch on the same one you use in forward?

[Christian Castillo]

I was free handing everything, I havent tried using the set up with the grinding jig, but that sounds like it'll handle the only problem I had with it. I wired it up to a double throw switch that I can flick up to have the belt rotate upward, or flick down to have the belt rotate down. I have been meaning to buy a foot pedal as well to make touching up with a strop really easy, or just make it much more convenient for knife sharpening.

[paul cottingham]

I was free handing everything, I havent tried using the set up with the grinding jig, but that sounds like it'll handle the only problem I had with it. I wired it up to a double throw switch that I can flick up to have the belt rotate upward, or flick down to have the belt rotate down. I have been meaning to buy a foot pedal as well to make touching up with a strop really easy, or just make it much more convenient for knife sharpening.

Would you mind sharing how you wired that? I would love to be able to reverse the motor, but am stymied.
thanks!

[Jim Koepke]

Would you mind sharing how you wired that? I would love to be able to reverse the motor, but am stymied.
thanks!

Many AC motors have a reversing jumper or changing of wiring will reverse the motor.

Remember you might get smoke and sparks if you try reversing an electric motor with the power on.

[Jim Koepke]

Yeah, I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I can't get a repeatable edge without huge amounts of grief. My first bevel setter was strangely bent, so it wouldn't give anywhere near consistent results. Of course, Lee Valley replaced it happily. A little better, but it is still impossibly finicky for me. I even have trouble getting the damn thing tight enough that it won't wander around on the platter, which screws up my bevels. Having to run out all the way, leaving some of the tool hanging off makes it easier to burn the tools.
I have fought with it for 2.5 years, and kinda had enough. I really, really, really want to like it. But I just can't.

Paul,

It may be you are trying to make this more exact than it needs to be. A piece of wood will not know whether the bevel is 25º or 27º.

I would appreciate a different design on the knurled nuts. Wing nuts might be better. Do you tighten the nuts on both sides of the holder?

I seldom have any of the tool hanging off the edge. This is something I only do when working the edge of a shovel or maybe an axe.

No matter, if the blade feels hot, it is rocked back off of the abrasive and allowed to cool or is dipped in water. When possible it works to be working on a few blades at the same time. I have 5 holders to allow for this. That seems to be enough to allow for air cooling when working on blades. My set up doesn't get as much use as in the past. When I was buying a lot of blades and planes there was a lot of work. Now it is an occasional touch up or reestablishing a bevel. Most of my sharpening is free hand. Even on the MK II I will forgo a holder, use the rest as a guide and eyeball the angle. A couple slaps on an Arkansas stone and it is back to the lathe.

Typically I lightly tighten the nuts while the blade and holder are resting on the setup gauge. Then the blade is checked to make sure it is touching the side of the holder at both the front and the back. Then the nuts are tightened. I can usually work a pretty strong grip but if need be I would use some pliers. Maybe have a pair with tape on the jaws since there are enough things that need tightening but I wouldn't want the jaws to gouge anything.

The geometry of the thing is a touch odd. Because of the thickness of the abrasives the angle changes between the plates if you are using 4 steps of abrasive. If one wants a micro bevel, this could be an advantage. If one doesn't want a micro bevel, it takes a little bit of shimming to make it even.

Another thing that bugs me is the plate holding screw has a right hand thread and often comes loose. I found a faucet 'o'-ring that fits the bottom of the nut and offers a little compression to hold the nut better.

If you ever wonder down toward Portland, OR give me a heads up and maybe we can get together and figure out how you might get better results.

jtk

[paul cottingham]

Paul,

It may be you are trying to make this more exact than it needs to be. A piece of wood will not know whether the bevel is 25º or 27º.

I would appreciate a different design on the knurled nuts. Wing nuts might be better. Do you tighten the nuts on both sides of the holder?

I seldom have any of the tool hanging off the edge. This is something I only do when working the edge of a shovel or maybe an axe.

No matter, if the blade feels hot, it is rocked back off of the abrasive and allowed to cool or is dipped in water. When possible it works to be working on a few blades at the same time. I have 5 holders to allow for this. That seems to be enough to allow for air cooling when working on blades. My set up doesn't get as much use as in the past. When I was buying a lot of blades and planes there was a lot of work. Now it is an occasional touch up or reestablishing a bevel. Most of my sharpening is free hand. Even on the MK II I will forgo a holder, use the rest as a guide and eyeball the angle. A couple slaps on an Arkansas stone and it is back to the lathe.
Careful, my family loves Portland. I may take you upon that offer!
Typically I lightly tighten the nuts while the blade and holder are resting on the setup gauge. Then the blade is checked to make sure it is touching the side of the holder at both the front and the back. Then the nuts are tightened. I can usually work a pretty strong grip but if need be I would use some pliers. Maybe have a pair with tape on the jaws since there are enough things that need tightening but I wouldn't want the jaws to gouge anything.

The geometry of the thing is a touch odd. Because of the thickness of the abrasives the angle changes between the plates if you are using 4 steps of abrasive. If one wants a micro bevel, this could be an advantage. If one doesn't want a micro bevel, it takes a little bit of shimming to make it even.

Another thing that bugs me is the plate holding screw has a right hand thread and often comes loose. I found a faucet 'o'-ring that fits the bottom of the nut and offers a little compression to hold the nut better.

If you ever wonder down toward Portland, OR give me a heads up and maybe we can get together and figure out how you might get better results.

jtk

I just can't get the damn thing to sharpen with anywhere near repeatable results. I also can't get the bevel to be consistent. And I can't get it consistently sharp. Even after 2 1/2 years.
I have no problem getting the medium down without wrinkles or bubbles. The blade does have to hang off in order to get a reasonably even grind on plane blades. Maybe I'm just too dumb to use such a fine tool. :-)
Just to be clear, I don't really care about the angle, as long as its consistent. And I'm not 100% convinced I care about using a microbevel, (isn't that really to save time sharpening, more than anything? I know Leonard Lee wasn't too keen on them, for example) as long as I get sharp.
Like I said, $400 for a lot of aggravation. Still love Lee Valley and Veritas. Just not this particular tool.
Careful, my family loves Portland. I may just take you up on your offer.