I'm spending 10K - are those the right choices?

[James Baker SD]

+1 on at least taking a good look at a slider (or slider/shaper combo) before making your final decision. Rod talked me into one and I have never looked back.

[Gilbert Grenier]

The mid size slider is the same size as a cabinet saw and does so much more.........I have mine in the basement of a townhouse, very space efficient.

got it, some internet research to do tonight . Which brand should I check first? Or avoid at all cost?

[Gilbert Grenier]

Gilbert, Your writing in English is very good. Far better than my 2 semesters of college French! My thoughts:
- I have an older PC7518 and it is great for a router table, though it would be better with a lift that allowed better and above the table adjustment. It is very heavy for most other uses, so I'd look at other options if you are not planning to put it in a table.
- The Sawstop is supposed to be a great saw, but it is a big slice of your budget. If you want the flesh sensing technology, it is your only option. If you don't feel that is necessary, you can get a very good saw for much less. In the U.S., you can get a 3hp Grizzly cabinet saw for less than half the price. You say that your Grizzly options are more limited, so that might not be an option. Look at the G0691 or G1023RLX if they are available.
- I am among those that like a separate jointer and planer, but could imagine learning to work around a combination machine. If you do buy separates, I would go for an 8" jointer rather than a 6" model. I use an 8" and still find myself short more often than I'd like.
- I think you have already eliminated a mortiser or domino as initial tool purchases, and that seems smart to me. I think the DowelMax is an excellent and budget-friendly joinery tool and it is Canadian to boot.
Good luck with your new shop and furniture building career!

Thank you Jon. But in your defense, french is a pain in the butt to learn. Lots of kids here finisho high school or college having a hard time to write decent french...!!

I have to admit, from all the reading, I'm starting to second guess the sawstop option. Not that it's a bad choice but as you say, that kind of money could be useful elsewhere, like a decent cyclone dust control system which is also health related.

[Earl Rumans]

Gilbert, since you have Hammer available to you, have you looked at the combination machines? The C3-31 Perform http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/produ...equipment.html with the silent power cutter head and Mortising unit would give you about everything you want, all in a single unit without taking up that much floor space. It was designed for use in small spaces. It would require you to plan ahead for your projects but it might be a viable option and would run less then all the separate machines you are looking at, plus you would have a saw almost as safe as the SawStop.

[Peter Kelly]

got it, some internet research to do tonight . Which brand should I check first? Or avoid at all cost?

Review of MiniMax SC2 Classic: http://www.metabricoleur.com/t6663-s...ht=minimax+sc2

[Gilbert Grenier]

Gilbert, since you have Hammer available to you, have you looked at the combination machines? The C3-31 Perform http://www.hammerusa.com/us-us/produ...equipment.html with the silent power cutter head and Mortising unit would give you about everything you want, all in a single unit without taking up that much floor space. It was designed for use in small spaces. It would require you to plan ahead for your projects but it might be a viable option and would run less then all the separate machines you are looking at, plus you would have a saw almost as safe as the SawStop.

This is an awesome machine and in the heat of the moment I could go crazy and order it right away but if I go take a cold shower, I'll have to think straight and admit it's too expensive for now. On this side of the border this baby will cost me close to 15k. But wow..!!

[David Kumm]

If you are looking at a full combo you should also watch used. It is not all that rare to find lightly used hobby machines. Full combos depreciate faster than most other machines so they are a bargain. Allows the budget to handle the Felder 700 series, higher end minimax or even Knapp. Way heavier build, thicker steel, heavier extrusions, better grinding on the cast iron, better slider design. Dave

[Prashun Patel]

There is a domino for sale on the classifieds right now. Its a great buy. If you are making furniture for customers, i think its worth the huge savings in time and effort it can give you.

[Gilbert Grenier]

Thanks for the pics Dan. I'm getting a clearer picture of the tools I want, the tools I need, the tools I really really need and the tools I will end up with. I'll definitely work on a floor layout based on all the info I got, the real footprint of the toys, taking into account the working area and storage.

[Ernie Miller]

I would avoid ShopFox unless you have a Shopfox dealer nearby. I own several and wouldn't buy another. This is not a knock on the machines, which have been fine. The problem is Shopfox does not sell to the public - only to dealers. So, if you need a part, you must buy it through a dealer. If you don't have one nearby, it will take forever to get parts. I'd go with the Grizzly versions of the same tool.

[rudy de haas]

hi:

Because you're in Canada you may find that buying from grizzly is somewhat more difficult than you might wish. First, delivery is by UPS and they give you no choices on it: so whatever the UPS driver wants on delivery is what you pay and good luck getting your money back afterwards. Second, if you or your survivors ever want to sell the machine, CSA or other certification will be required - so make sure that mchine has it.

A better idea is to visit your local busybee store (www.busybeetools.com) - their products are often nearly the same as grizzly's but there are no shipping or certification issues. I got the demo floor models for their 8" jointer, table saw, and planer/molder at a significant discount and have been happy with them.

The A-31 is a great machine - expensive but worth it if you have the bucks. You may, however, want to reconsider the sawstop - it's a good saw, but the safety feature is most valuable if the machine is used for teaching because of the reduction you get on insurance costs. If you are comfortable with using a cabinet sasw, you can save lots of dollars (enough to upgrade your dust collection!) by getting a more traditional product like the grizzly/craftex ones.

Bandsaws are very commonly sold via kijiji - and many appear to be in great shape at dimes on the dollar. If you're not doing a lot of resawing you may want to consider getting a bigger used machine along with a small, but new, unit like one of the korean made products at home depot.

Two other notes:

1 - Dust collection is almost as important as a sharp pencil - I wish I had known before getting started and now regret having underspent on it. Don't make my mistake!

2 - Allow yourself some money in the budget for things like making good tool and lumber storage. There's nothing more frustrating than knowing you have just the right piece of wood - somewhere in pile.

[Rod Sheridan]

got it, some internet research to do tonight . Which brand should I check first? Or avoid at all cost?

Felder/Hammer have better dealer facilities in Canada, however MiniMax make a great product as well..........Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

But I think the point here is that would it be in your first 3 or 4 purchased. I agree that if $$ is available it must he a sweet machine but should I get it before other tools...not convinced.

Nope. Not in the first 3 - 4. Just wanted to give a different perspective to the comment I replied to. Keep it somewhere on your horizon, if it fits with your plans.

But - it kinda depends on what you plan on doing. Me - I do primarily Arts & Crafts style furniture; not only are there the typical M&T joints for rails-to-legs, etc., there are a lot of through-mortises. The sheer volume of M&T work makes it essential for me. Cabinet work - very rare for me. Did a very nice project rebuilding the kitchen 12 years ago - cherry, 33 full-inset doors with divided lites and stained glass. MY first big cabinet job, and my last - never again - nothing left to prove on that front.

I was fortunate in that when I loaded up the shop, I got a TS and a CMS with infeed/outfeed tables first, and then 6 months later hit for the cycle - BS, DP, planer, jointer, DC and mortiser.

I don't have any experience with the domino - guys here love it; it did not exist when I tooled up. Would not help on through-mortises.

Whatever you do - don't even think of getting one of those DP adapter things.

Also - FWIW - my 6" jointer had a shelf life of 9 months. donated it to local HS - 8" is minimum, IMO.

And - my first mortiser - the base-model - had a shelf life of 6 months - also went to the HS.

[Roy Harding]

Kind of echoing some of the earlier posts here, plus a thought or two of my own (as a former small-shop furniture/cabinet business owner).
...

2) 13' x 17' is small. Only planning for the space required for the machinery does not take into consideration the space required for fitting/assembly, gluing and the very important finishing. You did not mention finishing at all. Mistake. Going from hobby to professional status requires that you seriously consider finishing and you will not be able to get away with "I'll just use a wipe on oil finish". Your shop will be shut down while things are drying. Your shop (with machinery) will not be big enough to hold even 1/2 of the lower cabinets of a typical kitchen and you will need to find somewhere to store cabinets while your are still building the remainder. Doable, but it cuts into efficiency.

...

...

5) Finished by hand for a while, went to spraying (a must) with conventional sprayer and jumped on a HVLP system when I learned what HVLP meant and think that is one of the best business things I ever did.

... Be ready to work in the shop all day, go to potential clients' homes at night to discuss potential work, then back home to work on quotes and bookkeeping.

Those points I didn't delete are PERFECT. When I set up my furniture (case work) business, I built a 25' X 50' shop - built around the workhorse of the whole thing, a Felder combo machine. I had originally set aside a small (7' X 9') area to be my spray room. Somewhere along the way, the spray room became my office - big mistake. I dealt with having to curtail ALL activity in the shop when I was doing finishing work, for fear of dust settling on the pieces. I recently bought an old, run down, but waterproof camping trailer and have converted it to be my spray room - hopefully, this works (seems good so far, but it's only been a couple of weeks).

David also makes a GREAT point regarding storage. I make blanket chests, hope chests, dowry chests - a LOT of chests. Despite the size of my shop, when I've got four or five on the go, it can be hazardous to walk around the shop. I've taken over our 3 car garage JUST to store works in progress (and a little bit of raw lumber).

Many other folks have made excellent points, and given you valid food for thought - but I just had to reinforce those two particular points.

Best of luck to you - you CAN make a decent living at this - but it's a hard row to hoe.

[John Sanford]

If you are looking at a full combo you should also watch used. It is not all that rare to find lightly used hobby machines. Full combos depreciate faster than most other machines so they are a bargain. Allows the budget to handle the Felder 700 series, higher end minimax or even Knapp. Way heavier build, thicker steel, heavier extrusions, better grinding on the cast iron, better slider design. Dave

What David said. You missed a Minimax CU300 here on the Creek by 2 weeks, you could have had your tablesaw, shaper, jointer, planer and mortiser needs covered for less than $5k and a trip to Michigan.

Now, I'm going to ramble a bit....

Based on the fuzziness of your plans, I'd suggest getting a good (i.e. 12" +) J/P, a decent used drill press, a track saw, mobile cyclone, good jigsaw, and start building things. You can use the tracksaw and jigsaw to handle all of your sheet good requirements, as well as do a significant amount of solid wood work. Your biggest limitation is your space. I wouldn't invest in a tablesaw (cabinet or slider) until you determine that you REALLY need it.

The thing is, there's so many different ways to get from quantity of cellulose to finished furniture that its pretty difficult to say "this is the way you should go", especially when the destination is vague. There are folks who turn out gallery quality work with a herd of Festool, a bandsaw, a jointer and a planer. There are some who have no bandsaw, others who have no tablesaw.

If you don't have a lot of work lined up yet, decide what you'd like to build on spec, and tool up for that.