Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 35

Thread: Attach face frames to built-in.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    971

    Attach face frames to built-in.

    I'm still working on my built-in, and now it's time to attach face frames to the bookcases. The cases are already installed, and each face frame stile covers where two bookcases meet, so I cannot clamp them on across the sides nor use hidden pocket screws. The stiles on the outer left and right will be scribed to the walls. The rail at the top covers all 6 bookcases but is currently accessible from above since the moulding that goes above it isn't yet installed, so those could be attached with pocket screws. Note that I am using splines for both alignment and gluing purposes. Also note that all of the face frame pieces are already painted.

    I'm wondering how I should go about attaching these face frames to the bookcases. I don't want to have to nail from the front because covering up the holes would require repainting, and that's just a pain. So my thought right now is to toenail them from the inside. I've never done that before, so my concern is blowout or something similar. Well my primary concern is getting injured since I've never used a nailgun before, but we can probably ignore that for now. I'm also not sure what length nail to use; the frames and the sides are both 3/4" material. I can obviously only toenail the outer left and right stiles from one side since their other side will be inaccessible, but hopefully that won't cause any problems.

    Would toenailing work well in this situation? Some of the stiles are a little bowed due to length (5.5 feet), so they would have to be clamped on using something like three-way clamps before I use the nails. Is there any other approach I should consider?

    I will need a nailgun at some point anyway since I probably don't want to install all of the moulding that goes above the bookcases using a hammer. Both of the big-box stores are selling combo kits for $199 right now. One is a PC while the other is a Bostitch. Does anyone have any recommendations on which to go with?

    Thanks.
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  2. #2
    Toe nailing is no good. Is there a gap between the cases?

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    971
    There is no gap. The only gaps exist on the outer left and right, as those cases do not rub up against the walls. Why will toenailing not work?
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Wayland, MA
    Posts
    3,655
    I'd probably use glue, with some biscuits for alignment and brads or finish nails in lieu of clamps. The fasteners only need to keep things in place until the glue sets, so they can be small and you don't need many. Unfortunately that would require either touch-up of the holes or a topcoat of paint-- one of the reasons its good to leave the final finish coat until installation is complete. Toenailing will tend to drive the pieces apart rather than together, that would seem to have a lot of potential for disaster. I try never to nail in the direction of my finished surface--too many things can go wrong.

  5. #5
    I built my mudroom cabinet the same way. I hear your dilemma. I ended up purchasing a 23 gauge pin nailer (if your ff's are 3/4 thick, you need a nailer capable of shooting ~ 2" pins). I glued the face frames and used a few pins to hold the ff's in place while the glue set. The pins are only noticeable when you look closely. Mine shoots flush, not countersunk. I like that bkz countersinking creates a visible divot requiring filling. There's also less risk of 'shattering' the finish. I would still shoot through tape, though. Shot flush, you can disguise the heads with an artist's brush; or you can purchase pre-colored pins. You only need a couple. Try to keep them out of typical eye height.

    If your room is narrow, you may also be able to use 'go bars' as temporary clamps. They are surprisingly effective and quick to use, but if the distance is too great, they can be a pain to make.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 11-12-2014 at 8:30 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    971
    Which pin nailer did you go with, Prashun?
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  7. #7
    Steve,
    Roger pretty much summed up the issues. Toe-nailing is really just a disaster waiting to happen. As he mentioned, in this scenario the nailing is actually trying to drive the pieces apart rather than pull them together. This often creates a loose joint that will actually hinge a bit. Also you will more than likely have an ugly blowout on the inside of the carcass as well and even though its inside its a bummer.

    The reason I asked about the gap is the way I do these is to leave a slight gap there then I plow a dado down the back of my face frame and glue in a spline. This makes the face frame a T shape. You simply glue and slide the spline into the gap and shoot a few pins through the carcass sides to hold it in place. You could do this now even by plowing a 1/2" dado down the back of your face frame and then using a router and a 1/2" straight cutter plow a few mortises in the carcass joint (assuming you used 3/4" material this would be a 1/2" mortised centered right on the joint where they meet) then just install short splines corresponding to your mortises and glue and shove it it/nail through the carcass tight behind the face frame.

    Many shops just glue face frames on but with no way to clamp, and if you finished the backs, thats a chore.

    Dowels would be another option but the splines are quicker and easier to align/register in my opinion. Plus if your dowel bores are very snug you would have to drive the face frames on with a mallet and a block which would likely crack your finish.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    1,933
    How about starting some finish nails by hand into the carcass face, clip the ends off in a point, and use a mallet to press the face frame onto them with some glue in strategic places?
    JR

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    971
    I already have a groove in the back of the face frames and a groove in the edges of the bookcase sides. I will be using a spline for both alignment and gluing purposes. I still might have to use a mallet depending on both how tight the fit is and the bow of the piece, but I might be able to avoid cracking the finish by using a block covered in tape.

    I like Prashun's idea of using a 23 gauge pin nailer from the front. Now I just gotta get a compressor...

    J.R., are the clipped nails simply there for alignment, or will they actually have holding power? What gauge nail would you recommend?
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  10. #10
    I think I got the Porter Cable 1-3/8" (I misspoke about the 2") I found the Grex got the best reviews, but for a once-in-a-blue-moon tool, I didn't have any issues. Shoot. If you want to 'borrow/rent' mine, I'll mail it to you for the price of shipping back and forth. It's just gathering dust on my shelf for now.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Three Rivers, Central Oregon
    Posts
    2,340
    Steve, we need more information in order to understand what you're dealing with. What is the total height and width of the built in? Have you pre-assembled the face frame? Can you post a picture of the project? It would answer lots of questions.

    All you need to attach a pre-assembled face frame is glue and a 23 gauge pin nailer.
    Scott Vroom

    I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    971
    I don't think I have a picture available. The built-in is nearly 13 feet long, with each of the 6 bookcases being about 5.5 feet tall. The bookcases are sitting on a granite countertop. The face frame is not pre-assembled. The rail will go on the top, and each stile will be cut to size and installed. I think I can attach the rail with pocket screws from above. I'm pretty sure I'm going to go the 23 gauge pin nailer route for the stiles, nailing from the front.

    The foot or so of space above the built-in will be filled in with moulding to match the rest of the room. All of that will be painted post-installation. Should I use 18 gauge nails to attach that moulding (which includes a crown)?
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  13. #13
    If youve dado'd for the face frame to carcass joint and you feel its going to be a snug/mallet fit I would scrap the nails/pins all together and simply glue, mallet the parts on, and hold them on there for a bit with some blue tape and forget it. I had assumed you had a butt joint there and would have a tough time clamping. Even a butt joint would suffice with glue and blue tape depending on the other factors. The nails/pins are adding virtually nothing to the joint once the glue is set. Even more so if youve got a dado there.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Bucks County, PA
    Posts
    971
    It's not really a dado. The carcase and the face frame are still meeting at a T-style butt joint. But there will be a spline between the two, and I expect that to be a tight fit.

    The lower cabinets that I built last year were done the same way. I only used glue on those; no tape. Those are a lot shorter however so there wasn't much in the way of bow on the face frame pieces. They were also painted after installation.
    And there was trouble, taking place...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Southwestern CT
    Posts
    1,392
    Had a similar scenario (bottom cabinets) where I didn't want to use the pinner and used the biscuit approach (domino might be better yet) just be sure to align from one side especially if you have "butting" cabinet sides.

    You still have the clamping issue. With your scenario (mounted on top of granite top) I'm not sure how to get the back pressure. Couple of ideas come to mind. Double-sided foam tape a board to the granite, and use wedges? Clamp a board to the granite overhang and use wedges? Mount a cross piece using the self standards or holes, and then use cauls top to bottom? If 32mm or other pin holes are present, you can mount vertical scrap wood on the pin holes braced from side to side with scrap, then use clamps from front of stile to the vertical scrap.

    I've used tape very successfully and then not so much - blue like Mark recommends above - also duct tape (some brands are "stretchy"). You'll need to cover anything where tape adhesive would be an issue.

    Tell us what you end up doing and how it worked!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •