Saw nib

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Why do you need a nicker on a saw? A saw IS a nicker! I'm open to the idea that my theory might be wrong, but I haven't been convinced of any others as yet. The ones that I least accept are:

• Compass point
• Aiming Sight
• Kerf starter/cleaner, which I will include nicker under this

The ones I might accept are:

• Identifying mark of the maker
• Identifying mark of the saw- i.e. you want to grab a crosscut versus a rip, maybe there is a different nib or presence/absence of one on each saw without looking at the teeth
• Decoration, although I have to say, it's not much of a decoration
• Showing off- a maker puts it there just to show that they are just that good at making a saw that they can shape a little nib on the ridge of the saw.
• Something you can use to test the metal. I kind of don't like this theory, but perhaps "back in the day" with less precise metallurgy than we have today (not that it wasn't good- just they didn't have the standards and technology we have today) a person might want to test a little piece of the saw for hardness, and the nib is for testing. Meh... could be...

The one I personally accept:

• A place to tie a sheath.

The one I wish were true, but highly unlikely:

• A device for shooting rubber bands at fellow craftsmen.

Although this topic comes up a lot on various woodworking and tool sites, and has been thoroughly hashed out, I am kind of glad it came up again because I always hope someone will chime in with some image they found in their great, great grandfather's attic.

Please don't anyone take my comments here as retaliatory or defensive. I would be happy to be proven wrong and find that it was actually a back scratcher or whatever, and finally have the answer! It has been a curiosity of mine for no real reason other than I hate not knowing. That said, if I find an image of a saw with a sheath tied to it, you all owe me a beer.

[Jim Koepke]

That's a new one,Jim. And,how awkward would that be?

The ones that I least accept are:
Compass point

So awkward as to be almost impossible.

It was meant as a joke.

The only time thoughts about the nib come to mind for me is when one of these threads appears.

Not knowing if the saw plates were stamped or not makes me wonder if it was merely a remnant of the quality control in the factory. It may have been used for taper ground saw plates as a place to check to see how much metal was on a set point of the spine before teeth were cut.

That is just a guess and has no more validity than being a mount for shooting rubber bands.

jtk

[george wilson]

Pat: You are aware that the nib is always hemispherical in shape? HOW could such a dull shape be a nicker? That makes no sense to me at all.

[Jim Koepke]

HOW could such a dull shape be a nicker? That makes no sense to me at all.

The idea of a nicker on the back of the saw doesn't make sense to anyone who thinks about it.

Anyone who knows how to use a saw wouldn't need one on the saw. If this were the purpose, anyone knowing how to use a saw would look at said saw and figure it was for beginners and would buy a saw "made for those who know how to use a saw."

Who ever placed the first nib on a saw may have put it there simply as a way of seeing who was paying attention to and copying their product.

"Say chief, they have tail fins, we should have tail fins."

jtk

[Jeff Wittrock]

I originally posted because I thought it was pretty funny that my wife would come up with the idea of starting a cut with it on her own without ever hearing anything about a nib.
Looks like there are lots of opinions out there.

I imagine that toolmakes of the past had to be pretty pragmatic, so it seems to make sense the nib was more than just an ornament. But then again, of what purpose is a lambs tounge? It is certainly more work than just a simple closed handle without the additional sculpting. So I don't think we can discount the fact that toolmakes of the past were no less likely to put effort into something that is just ornamental than we are today.

What do I think a nib is for?
I don't have a clue. I only know that I think the thing is ugly and am leaning towards leaving it off my own saw . I am trying to take what I can from history, and leave the things I don't like behind.

[Moses Yoder]

How was a saw plate cut when Disston first manufactured saws? How would the nib actually have been formed? Nowadays it would be stamped out with a die I guess. Just wondering if the nib on early Disston saws actually would take extra time to make? For me personally, I am just going to use the nib for whatever I think of.

[george wilson]

The nib takes extra trouble to make. It consists of not only the nib itself,but a lowering of the top edge of the saw plate in front of the nib too. On the 18th. C. Kenyon saws we made,it additionally consisted of making a large radius on the top front edge of the saw plate as well.

I don't see why saw makers would go to this trouble and extra expense if it was purely ornamental.

[Eric Brown]

All of the very old saws I have seen with a nib, the area before the nib was parallel with the rest of the back. The newer saw makers took liberties and sometimes angled this area. If there was a purpose for the nib other than holding a string or decoration, then consider this: The English were being taxed by the number of windows they had. Therefore, many homes had few windows. Later the taxes were changed and people wanted windows. Remember, this was before electricity, so lighting was by oil lamp, candle, etc. So how would a carpenter cut a hole in a wall back then to fit a new window and keep things square? My guess is that they would cut a slotted hole into the plaster and insert the saw, cutting wall board until a stud is hit. You would then stick the saw into the slot until the nib contacts the stud, moving the handle until the area before the nib makes contact. You then would know where the edge of the stud was. You can also layout a square cut across a board by holding the nib against another square board held slightly higher on the back of the board you wish to mark and then using the area between the nib and the handle as a straight edge. This idea also works for angles using an angled board for the nib to register off of. Just speculation, but I really think there was a definite purpose for the original nib.

I've added a picture to this post showing how a nib can be used to mark a board square.

Saw nib.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

The nib takes extra trouble to make. It consists of not only the nib itself,but a lowering of the top edge of the saw plate in front of the nib too. On the 18th. C. Kenyon saws we made,it additionally consisted of making a large radius on the top front edge of the saw plate as well.

I don't see why saw makers would go to this trouble and extra expense if it was purely ornamental.

Until about 1910 Stanley made some tools with purely ornamental features. There was almost an industrial Victorian tool fashion until the early 20th century.

One article on the nib suggests it is only there because someone started putting it there and it then became one of those, "we have always done it this way" traditions:

About that time I saw Mr. Schiele again and he told me that the Disston people fully believe that the "nib" is and always has been an ornament placed there by an early saw maker with feeling for design, and then copied year after year. He referred me to the statement in Disston's Handbook on Saws which reads thus: The "Nib" near the end of a handsaw has no practical use whatever, it merely serves to break the straight line of the back of blade and is an ornamentation only.

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-saws/...ingMag-NIB.asp

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

The origin of the nib goes way back, long before Diston. The Dutch saw I showed is a 17th century model. The Seaton saws are late 18th century. As far back as these kinds of saws exist, they seem to have had a nib, saws with a handle on one end and an unsupported long blade contrary to bowsaws.

A lot of things were ornamental back then. Just look at furniture from the 17th century, a lot of it has carving even mundane stuff like stools or keep sake boxes for village people.

The same goes for tools. Just look at this image from 1694 (The plumber, from Jan Luyken). The steps of the ladder, or the decoration of the bellows. I see no reason why they wouldn't tart up their saws a little bit.

[Justin Green]

This is from a Museum of Early American Tools by Eric Sloane, to add some more fuel to the fire.

[george wilson]

Man,those are poor drawings.

[Justin Green]

Man,those are poor drawings.

Agreed, but it was all I had to stir the pot with

[Dave Anderson NH]

Once upon a time in a land far far away where all tool designs originated and all designs were perfectly ergonomic, and all tools were made in the best manner of the best materials, there was a sawmaker with a warped sense of humor.

Anyone care to finish what is in actuality the real answers to the saw nib question?

[bridger berdel]

The nib takes extra trouble to make. It consists of not only the nib itself,but a lowering of the top edge of the saw plate in front of the nib too. On the 18th. C. Kenyon saws we made,it additionally consisted of making a large radius on the top front edge of the saw plate as well.

I don't see why saw makers would go to this trouble and extra expense if it was purely ornamental.

Decorating tools is probably as old as tools. Some of the northern european woodworking tools are so heavily carved that I cannot escape the mental image of the woodworker snowbound in his cabin for months, waiting for the spring melt, doing anything he can to work with his tools.